steel or brass?

[mrstrellisofnwales]

Sorry if I’m becoming a pain with my ignorance here but  I know so little about this new world of resonators that I’ve belatedly discovered. Will definitely be buying a decent metal bodied guitar some time this year.But……
Which body material do you prefer- and why?
Mrs T.

[gordon]

That's a good question but not an easy one to answer ! No harm in asking.
I think many people will say they like both steel and brass, and that's without mentioning single-cones, tricones or spider-cones.
I certainly love both, maybe just feel more at home with the sound of a steel-bodied guitar than brass.
Let's take it as an excuse to have a couple of examples, Tarheel Slim with a brass bodied guitar and Blind Boy Fuller with a steel body guitar. You can hear a warmer, rounder sound for the first one and a brattier, punchier sound, some say more 'lonesome' with steel. That said, every guitar is different and the first recording is from the '70s and the second from the '30s, but you get an idea.

[Michael Messer]

That is indeed a question that really can only be answered by discussing and playing the instruments. However, there are some clear differences and some guidances that I can give you.

There are three types of metal bodied guitars - tricone (triplate), single cone, fiddle edge Dobro. Tricones were originally made of German silver and these days are mostly made of brass, but some are made of steel. Single cone guitars have a more twisted history - they were originally and still are made of steel or brass and some were made of German silver. Fiddle Edge Dobros were made of brass or steel and currently the only ones being made today are brass. My comments are generalisations because there are always anomalies in these things. I have played steel bodied rust buckets that sound as sweet as can be, and beautiful shiny nickel plated wonders that sound like a rusty tin can. So each guitar has its own personality, sound and feel, or should have.

Tricones were the original design, the invention, which in 1926 were invented and designed by John Dopyera and George Beauchamp. These were made of German silver and were designed for playing Hawaiian steel slide. Whether made of German silver or brass, the tricone has a rich sweet sound with wonderful sustain, it also has a complex mixture of overtones which when played with a slide add an amazing atmosphere and depth to the sound. These days some manufacturers are producing budget priced tricones and others are also making them of steel, none of which, in my opinion work properly. I find they just sound like average resonator guitars with something missing. So when it comes to metal bodied tricones, brass or German silver (German silver is no longer used by any manufacturers, so only originals are made of this material), you have to get either a 1920s/30s one, or a high end new National or handmade instrument.

Single cones - Some were made of German silver, but let's just stick to brass and steel. Gordon has actually explained it well by showing two players with steel and brass guitars. Much like tricones, brass tends to have a more sophisticated sound with some overtones. They ring out with a bell-like quality and are great for most styles, with or without a slide. Steel bodied guitars, especially 12 fret models, have a fat powerful bass with lots of mids and singing top end. They tend to sound more harsh, which some people call "bluesy" and they have great character.

Fiddle Edge Dobros - the brass ones are very rich in their tone and sound somewhere between a wood bodied Dobro and a GS or brass tricone. Brass Fiddle edge guitars have amazing sustain and are very sweet sounding guitars. Steel bodied FEs are also very sweet and warm sounding, but have a less complex sound and have a kind of very beautiful "tin can" tone and echo in the way they resonate.

Then there are wood bodied resonator guitars and that is a whole other subject.

The player is also a massive part of all this, probably 70% of the sound is the player. For example go on Youtube and find Mark Knopfler, Eric Bibb and others playing Bukka White's National "Hard Rock" Duolian. None of them sound like Buck White, they all sound like themselves playing a National Duolian.

Big subject that I have only just touched on. I hope that is helpful. I haven't read through to check what I have said, so I hope it's not total bollox.

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

Oh....one more thing... Don't believe all the sales jargon about "bell brass" because there is no such thing, it's just brass. It's a marketing ploy that came into the resonator guitar world via the OMI Dobro company in the 60s and 70s.

Shine On
Michael

[stevie2sticks]

Mrs T
I am lucky to to own a MM Lightening and a MM Blues 28, they sound and play very different.
My buddy recently has bought the MM steel body, and I’ve played that several times, and I’d easily have one of them as well.
Hard choice to make just on sound, as they are all cracking guitars.
May I suggest you ask if anyone lives near owns steel/brass/wood reso and will let you have a go.
I would also suggest getting one of Ian’s Diamond Bottleneck slides.
Wales is not a million miles from Pocklington in East Yorkshire, where Michael runs a weekend of slide playing with a really friendly group.
Good luck
Steve
Isle of Man

[mrstrellisofnwales]

Thanks for the replies guys. So much detail and I am learning all the time from you all. History and experience in every reply. The videos are great and make me want to go through my record collection with a different ear to see if I can discern just what’s being played and by whom.  Sort of the same as I did many years ago listening to Neil Youngs D28 or James Taylor’s J50.  I’m just playing at home these days, doing my own arrangements of mostly old songs so I’m thinking versatility is the key. I’m aiming to produce different, resonator versions of songs I’ve played for years and record a couple of hours worth purely as a gift to our tribe of grandkids.  There’s no tricone in the MM range. Will there ever be one? But the Lightning does sound great on the videos I’ve watched. 
I think I’m being drawn to the sustain of the brass tricone, having played slide on a 12 string baritone for years, but when I get out and about to try some guitars out, well you never know. And Michael, thanks for the heads up on the bell brass nonsense. 
This is a great forum and online community. Thanks again and I’m sure this won’t be the last of my newbie questions. 
Mrs T

[richclough]

Hi Mrs Trellis,
If you do live in North Wales then I am 15 mins north of Denbigh with a National Resophonic Style 1 Tricone and an MM Blues 28 that you are welcome to come and try.
Cheers,
Rich

[Michael Messer]

Apr 4, 2023 19:44:59 GMT mrstrellisofnwales said:

There’s no tricone in the MM range. Will there ever be one?

I am pleased to hear that you are enjoying the forum. Unlike most other online forums, this is a real community from all parts of the world that meet here to share our knowledge and passion for music, musical instruments and all things related.

The answer to your question about will there ever be an MM tricone is that in the foreseeable future there will not be a tricone in the range. The reason for this is that unless I can match what National made in the 1930s I am not interested. The only way I could achieve that would be to go into it in the same way as I did with the MM Fiddle Edge, and even then it may not match what I consider to be a great tricone. I did some tests a few years ago and decided that plenty of companies produce tricones that people seem happy with and that I would not take it any further. I really don't like discussing MM Guitars anywhere on the forum outside of the Main Street section, because it starts to look like I only use the forum for that purpose, which is really not the case at all. However, while we are on the subject... That was really when and how the MM Fiddle Edge started to materialise, and I believe it offers what 90% of the world's tricones currently being made, would like their guitars to do, but don't.

The offer from Rich to go and try his guitar is most generous and is proof of how well our community works.

Shine On
Michael

[mrstrellisofnwales]

Thank you Rich for the kind offer which I may take up - will give you plenty of notice before I get in touch. Michael, as regards tricone I fully see where you’re coming from and didn’t intend to cross the forum boundaries. But from all the replies which have come from this and my other question I now feel confident enough to get my rear in gear to get around and try out as many resonators as I can this Summer and make a purchase- knowing roughly what I’m looking for.
Mrs T

[bonzo]

I'd recommend getting an MM blues as soon as it's possible. They turn up on the forum in tin can alley occasionally.
Excellent guitar that you can enjoy playing while looking at other options.
The thing is, like most of us cone heads, you will end up with several resonators anyway!

Best wishes to you all, John

[Michael Messer]

Apr 5, 2023 11:35:22 GMT mrstrellisofnwales said:

Thank you Rich for the kind offer which I may take up - will give you plenty of notice before I get in touch. Michael, as regards tricone I fully see where you’re coming from and didn’t intend to cross the forum boundaries. But from all the replies which have come from this and my other question I now feel confident enough to get my rear in gear to get around and try out as many resonators as I can this Summer and make a purchase- knowing roughly what I’m looking for.
Mrs T

Mrs T, You didn't cross any forum boundaries. You can talk about MM Guitars all over the forum, that boundary is for me not to cross. I only talk about MM Guitars in the Main Street section of the forum, and that keeps the forum from becoming a free advertising space for my guitars, albums and tours.

Shine On
Michael

[disparatesoul]

Apologies for commenting a little late to the party !

i do find this interesting especially being fairly new to resonators myself.

Michael's comments on the player though really stood out though, as i've always found it exactly the same with other types of guitars. A lot of people spend a lot of money, me included!, trying to emulate a certain tone from certain players and are often disappointed - hopefully we eventually find our own tone and sound. Many of the players we admire sound very similar no matter what guitar they play - so i suppose that would apply just as much to resonator players as it does to regular acoustic or electric guitar players

[brucer]

Steel or Brass? Sometimes as a player, you can be agnostic to the material. Some guitars just capture your soul. I bought a Michael Messer Fiddle Edge, I was impressed and as a result, was serious about buying a Blues 28. That would have given me a wooden-bodied biscuit alongside a steel-bodied one. I had also recently bought a 60’s Hofner Congress Archtop as I wanted a slightly quieter guitar to play in the office. The neck was like a banana but my intention was just to raise the action and use it for slide mainly fretting up to the 7th fret. The tone, sound and projection were amazing. Around this time I was offered another archtop a 1938 Kalamazoo KG-22 which I bought. This 80 old guitar was in near new condition and like all Gibson-made guitars of that period played so very well, it stole my soul and stole the funds to buy the MM Blues.

I was still playing in the Fiddle Edge and picked up my old wooden-bodied Dobro to compare the wood v metal body tone - it was by no means as rich in tone as the Fiddle Edge but projected well and had as much if not more apparent volume, this sort of made me doubt the virtue of a metal-bodied spider and I was leaning back towards buying the MM Blues.

Around then I picked up my late 1990s steel Vintage AMG and realised why I liked metal-bodied guitars in the first place - that barking traditional blues sound. I was thinking of letting the Kalamazoo go and recently played both a brass bodied and a steel-bodied Nationals from the 30s with a view to doing a trade. Fortunately, I decided to keep the Kalamazoo but did start to play the Fiddle edge more seriously, it has rewarded me by revealing its virtuosity and depth of tone, being responsive it gives the feeling it is listening to me - in reality, it is the other way round. Now the Fiddle Edge is firmly in my go-to guitar set.

So this long pre-able is really all about one thing, you can not really predict from the body material alone if a guitar is right for you. I have had luthier build guitars with Spruce tops and sides, Engleman Spruce Tops and mahogany backs, and guitars constructed in walnut, Apple and Canadian Wild Cherry, all vary and bring different qualities.

I do like the very bluesy bark of steel and until I can find the right circa 30’s National biscuit bridge will hang on the AMG for the harsh, cutting sound of a Triolian/Duolian. I may compromise if a nice pre-war Style O comes up or even try out a wood-bodied biscuit bridge. I will continue to enjoy the richness, depth and precision of tone the Fiddle Edge gives as well as the responsiveness of the Dobro. So while the materials used in the construction will affect the guitar; it is the guitar, not the materials I go for.