Rolled vs Flat F holes-any tonal, or structural difference?

[misterwhom]

I am trying to find some more information about the differences between resonators with rolled F holes and flat F holes.  I understand that there could be a structural advantage.  I noticed Michael Messer had spoken about seeing some sag in older models that had flat F holes in a past forum response (I do not know to what degree, the age of instrument, or number of instruments).  Has this been corrected in new National Resphonic Guitar company runs (as opposed to original Nationals), or is it just the nature of the beast?  Furthermore, I have found less information about the effects on tone.  I assume contributing to a stiffer top could change something acoustically in the way the cone functions, but I have not had the opportunity to try two models where the only difference was the F hole type.  Keeping in mind that differences could be subtle and that a guitar is the sum of its parts, does anyone have any first hand experience with this topic; or can anyone direct me to interviews, or literature that details the differences in structure and tonality between closely matched resonators?  Perhaps Duolians would be a good place to start since they came in different F hole variants and still can in new iterations. 

Thanks for any insight that can be shared on this topic.

[Michael Messer]

Hello misterwhom,

The construction and design of National guitars is a massive subject to discuss, but I will do my best to explain....

First of all, anything I say when referring to "National" guitars is related to the original National Guitar Company, not to the company called National Reso-Phonic Guitars (NRP), which has no connection whatsoever with the original company.

Rolled F holes do give the top more stiffness and some say that their favourite Nationals are those models. However, there are as many people that think quite the opposite and believe that flat cut F holes are the ones. For example, early two piece steel bodied Triolians with flat cut F holes are among the most sought after Nationals for their amazing tone. There are also people that say the same about early 12 fret Duolians with flat cut F holes and they would be right. However, there is no way anyone could say that Blind Boy Fuller's 1933 12 fret Duolian with short rolled F holes isn't an amazing sounding guitar.

I have seen the tops of flat cut F hole brass bodied guitars with some warping in the top, but I have never noticed that it affected their tone.

Having been examining, playing, collecting, discussing and writing about these weird and wonderful instruments for what is now more than forty years, I am very much of the opinion that there are good and bad instruments of every model, and that when one is not a good one, nothing will make it into a good one. Equally, when there is a great one, they stay great through whatever happens, within reason of course.

Much of the talk about short rolled F holes being the best comes from the late Bob Brozman, who while being so knowledgeable about National guitars, also had a very narrow and limited taste in them. Most of Bob's affection for rolled F hole style O guitars came from his experience with his own Style O, which is without question a fine instrument. This was probably quite forcefully enforced on NRP in the early days. When Bob had an opinion about something, there was no room for any movement, it was cast in stone. It was in fact when I launched MM Guitars in 2008 that NRP took a look in the mirror and made some changes to their designs and to the materials they were using. While I did like Bob's Style O with the rolled F holes, I have never been of that opinion about rolled F holes across the board, and my personal preference, especially aesthetically, is for flat cut F holes.

I hope that is helpful and makes some kind of sense. These things are so much easier to discuss when talking in a conversation, rather than as a typed document.

Shine On
Michael

[misterwhom]

Thanks for your detailed response Michael. What you're saying makes total sense to me and further underscores what I am hearing from multiple sound samples, as well as seeing and reading about specific prized models from the original National company. It is also good to have confirmation from what you have experienced personally, that even if an original National's flat F holes warped, that it did not have an impact on the tone. I love learning about the mechanics and artistry of the resonator guitar and I appreciate you shedding some light on this particular feature.

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I have owned two 12 fret Nationals with rolled F-holes - a 1933 National Duolian, and a 1933 Polychrome Triolian (rare in 12 fret, rolled F-hole format)
I didn't really "bond" with either of them - the reasons for this are a combination of neck shape & the neck reset & set-up that had been done to both.

I'm not really sure if the guitar's tone sounded as nice to me, compared to my other Nationals BUT the neck & set-up were probably a large factor.
I couldn't really blame it on the rolled F-holes.

EVERY National I own (or have owned) sound and feel different - you grow to like some more than the others - or at least certain ones for certain things or certain tunings, or some are better for slide, some for regular tuning etc.

I've never particularly preferred steel over brass bodies, mahogany over maple necks, or flat-cut F-holes over rolled F-holes.
If they play good and sound good, that's all that matters.


I really like all my flat-cut F-hole Nationals - on an aesthetic basis though !

[misterwhom]

Thanks for your insight Snakehips.  As with all instruments trying to define what a single component may, or may not be doing is always tricky, since everything works as a cohesive whole.  My curiosity of course implores that I ask though ha.  I know I could talk for hours to builders and experts on the choices in construction for individual resonators if given the opportunity.

[pascal]

May 4, 2022 1:16:53 GMT misterwhom said:

I am trying to find some more information about the differences between resonators with rolled F holes and flat F holes.  I understand that there could be a structural advantage.  I noticed Michael Messer had spoken about seeing some sag in older models that had flat F holes in a past forum response (I do not know to what degree, the age of instrument, or number of instruments).  Has this been corrected in new National Resphonic Guitar company runs (as opposed to original Nationals), or is it just the nature of the beast?  Furthermore, I have found less information about the effects on tone.  I assume contributing to a stiffer top could change something acoustically in the way the cone functions, but I have not had the opportunity to try two models where the only difference was the F hole type.  Keeping in mind that differences could be subtle and that a guitar is the sum of its parts, does anyone have any first hand experience with this topic; or can anyone direct me to interviews, or literature that details the differences in structure and tonality between closely matched resonators?  Perhaps Duolians would be a good place to start since they came in different F hole variants and still can in new iterations. 

Thanks for any insight that can be shared on this topic.

Yes very subjective, a month ago I had the choice between a Triolian # 1788 P (1932) flatcut, two pieces body and a triolian #2241 P (early 1934) rolled F-holes, same yellow finish. The 34' sounds "harshier " (more like a modern NRP) and my choice without a doubt immediately turned to the 32'... (Both 12 freters)
Why? Simply since I am interested by old vintage National, the first I had in sight (and sound) was Cyril Lefebvre Duolian back in 1983. Always had that type of "mellow" steel sound into my head. Of course, I do not have the precious subtle vibrato Cyril had on his National (and hands) but the souvenir is well alive when I play it...
And Brozman wasn't born yet in 83' ,LoL.

[pascal]

...By the way, and the history, I also owned two style "O", one was #S4740 (rolled F-holes and brass body) from 1933 (encore?) and the other one was an early 1930 #S683 (top was steel if I remember correctly, at last the cover plate was!) Of course with flat-cut holes.
Sound was not as harsh between the two guitars, as for the Triolians (the style "O" were sold two decades ago), I liked the sound of the 1933, but again my choice was for the flat cut early 30'.
Atavism?
Here is my Triolian:

[polly]

Gday pascal, off topic mate, but I was was wondering about the Triolian's serial number. It's the closest finish I've seen to my own '33.
For what it's worth misterwhom , I like the flat cut f holes.

[charliechitlins]

I have only owned 2 resos, a cheapie to put a toe in the water, and a '36 Duolian.
I have tinkered with both pretty extensively.
I am of the impression (which could always be wrong) that the huge vibrating thing(s) in the middle of these guitars is so overpowering that (they) would way overshadow even things like neck size/mass and make them negligible.
All things being equal, my guess is that the F-holes could not have a significant impact on the sound that one could make an across-the-board conclusion about.

[tigercubt20]

my guitar nut made from unicorn horn. hand carved by tibetan monks, made big improvement to my playing ability. i now dont need to practice.