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Post by thefoxtooth on Aug 26, 2021 2:44:54 GMT
Hi everyone, I have a Recording King RM-991 tricone that I picked up on a whim last year because the price was so great, and in the meantime I’ve fallen in love with Oscar Alemán’s tricone playing. I play a lot of Django and fingerstyle so he’s a real discovery.
I was pleased to buy the RK because I remembered years ago playing one next to some new Nationals and being impressed; there seemed to be hardly any difference in sound.
This makes sense because there’s no wood mojo—everything is mechanical, and as long as you follow the same process there’s no reason a Chinese factory can’t make just as good a body assembly as the National shop for a much lower cost. Making the neck is way more complicated than the cone spinning.
But then I was just at Norman’s Rare Guitars and got the chance to play a vintage Style 1 for the first time in a very long time, and it blew my mind. Just buttery and creamy with no harshness. Best resonator I’ve ever played. But of course it’s $9500 and forget that. (First of all, they need a strap button in the heel to balance correctly and I don’t want to lose $1000 doing that.)
I know a lot of really knowledgeable players who say the new Nationals sound just as good as the old ones and are a lot more playable, and I’ve played enough old single-cones to vouch for the playable part. This makes me wonder whether my mind is playing tricks on me regarding my memory of the new Nationals.
So my question is: does anyone have experience with both guitars? Would changing the cones out to Nationals help? I’m happy enough with the RK, and I just bought a ‘35 Gibson L-4 so buying a new National is out for a while. But the difference I heard is VAST, and if I can close the gap even halfway by changing the cones, I’ll do it.
I do my own fret work—I had to level and dress the RK—so I’m not intimidated by a cone change, but I hate to just blindly gamble $140 if it’s the body alloy or something I’m hearing, especially just after shelling out for that Gibson.
Any help appreciated!
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Post by Michael Messer on Aug 26, 2021 7:57:59 GMT
Hello Foxtooth and welcome to our forum.
I hate to say it, but if you believe that there is no mojo in a metal body and that spinning a cone is way easier than making a wood neck, you are mistaken. I have been around luthiers that build and repair these instruments all my life and I produce very good single cone instruments in a small factory in China, so I do know what I am talking about on this one.
There are few things in this world as beautiful sounding as a good vintage National Tricone and the Oscar Aleman tone, as well as his playing, is exactly that.
I have been manufacturing resonator guitars in China for the past thirteen years and I know a lot about these instruments. 1920s and 30s Nationals are my benchmark and I have tried to produce a tricone that matches up to the originals, but I have given up because Tricones are complicated instruments to build and to get just right. There is a lot more to it than just being mechanical and fitting a set of National cones in your Recording King will change the tone, but it is not the answer. Good vintage Tricones are masterpieces of instrument making and I only know a couple of luthiers that understand how to recreate that.
Shine On Michael
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Post by Stevie on Aug 26, 2021 8:17:17 GMT
When I first "went inside", I put a Mitutoyo digital caliper on my Continental cone and from memory it was 8 thou'. As an eight years old kid, I watched someone spinning frying pans, anyone who thinks that spinning a cone from alloy as thin as a resonator cone represents less skill than carving a neck might perhaps benefit from having a go at doing it.
e&oe ...
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Post by leeophonic on Aug 28, 2021 9:03:15 GMT
A good cone will make a difference, but at what point do you decide it is what it is, enjoy the guitar as is and if you want something different get that instead, it may involve a bit of horse trading but there are so many variables in what makes a guitar great, 70 % of it is you....
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Post by vastopol on Sept 1, 2021 12:01:28 GMT
I tend to think that these type of budget instruments doesn't have the same potential from one to another, even with the same model, under the same brand. I had four tricones under the brand "Johnson" under my hands for some time, this brand seems to have made absolutely the same products as "Recording-King"...and are probably made the same way, in the same place. (Perhaps "Johnson" are less good than "Recording king", as the working poeple get an better experience with time ?)
One of these "johnson" is absolutely unplayable because too much wood was removed to the heel at the factory, so the scale is wrong, it also have a backbow, with other weird features inside. Another one was made with a strange type of cones, with a missing gap in the perimeter, so these cones can't stand the presure of the strings and sit on the soundwell, one of these cones was cutted on that lip; it was evidently done at the factory from too much presure on the lathe when spining was done...
On every one I've noticed different troubles around the way that the neckstick was adjusted and blocked under the top, this area seems to have a big influence on the way a resonator guitar can give a proper sound. One of these guitars been my main guitar for ten years, virtually the same but very different in the way she was built.
I don't know if we can compare anything with "Recording king" but some of us will agree that the way that the different parts are adjusted seems to be more important than the brand of the cones. If your guitar seems to sound really good, these NRP cones will add a bit more, but you had to cut a very neat and appropriate saddle on the bridge, it's also very important.
Just to say that I've seen how it could be vain to put valuable cones in a badly made instrument, or with a non appropriate saddle. I hope it could be helpfull...
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 1, 2021 12:41:24 GMT
Vastapol,
Recording King and Johnson instruments are both products of the AXL factory.
Tricones are not easy instruments to make. As mass-production instruments and as budget-priced instruments, they are fraught with problems. You could say they inherently have three times the amount of problems that single cone guitars have.
Shine On Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Sept 1, 2021 14:36:21 GMT
Vastapol’s experiences are typical of Far Eastern resos that are not set up probably. This is one reason why Michael Messer guitars are good ‘straight from the box’. There are probably no guitar players, and even more likely no slide players working at the factory, so it’s just got to look ok. Occasionally one gets put together well and you can have a playable, good sounding guitar. If you are buying a Far Eastern instrument, try it first ( unless you are sure you can trust the seller, ) Quality control is the reason MM has a good name, but if you try 4 or 5 Recording Kings you may well find one that doesn’t sound too bad.
If you upgrade your cones there should be an improvement in tone and volume, but like putting a V8 motor in a VW beetle ,you will also need to upgrade the body, wheels , gearbox etc etc . to get the best out of it. Pete
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Post by gaucho on Sept 1, 2021 15:58:50 GMT
If the cones in the RK are Continental, no need to replace them. The Continentals are very good. I don't know how you'd tell tho...
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 1, 2021 16:20:22 GMT
If the cones in the RK are Continental, no need to replace them. The Continentals are very good. I don't know how you'd tell tho... I can identify Continental cones, but I'd need to see one. Shine On Michael
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Post by vastopol on Sept 2, 2021 8:33:52 GMT
I made some interesting observations looking on the weight of different brands of cones. (just done on my kitchen weighing machine, perhaps not absolutely acurate but it gives a point of view). The weight is for the complete set of tree cones: - The "AXL" made or what you can find in "johnson" guitars around 2000: 29 g (I don't know if they are what we can call "Continental" because I also have an old "Continental" tricone and his cones are very differently made when I compare with what I can see on the web under the name "continental"...but nowadays "Continental" guitars seems to be made with "AXL" parts, ...too similar to be made in Germany; but it's another story...) - a strange unfunctional AXL made set, but maybe older (with a lower serial number and the older type of letters on the headstock), and the missing lip and sometines cutted perimeter described before: 24 g - NRP pre "hot-rod" 23 g (too bad because I've forgot to weight NRP's "hot-rod" before selling one of these guitars to a friend) - Beard: 30 g... - National (vintage) 20 g Another interesting point is to compare the weight of the T bridges: - National vintage: 55 g - Amistar 50 g (this one without saddle) - Johnson-AXL 48 g (and without the black painting!) We can see how everything in a chinese made tricone is generaly stiffer and heavyer; except for the bridge ! Of course we can't dream to get the sound of a fabulous pre war tricone from a budget guitar, but it's good to better understand why. Here's another interesting thread about the single cones: michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/11100/cone-weight(Perhaps this place could be more appropriate for this chat?...) (From what I can hear, by switching "Continental-AXL" to "NRP pre hot-rod", in the same guitar, same type of strings, tuning, set up, and after several month of playing, I tend to prefer the NRP's but that doesn't mean much...I do the same with "hot-rod NRP" and this time I found them very similar to "continentals-AXL", I don't know if the fact that they change the alloy, or because it's not the same person who does the spinning but even the "hot-rod" and "pre hot-rod" cones sound different...to my ears...I had to say that I prefer a sweet sound, some would prefer something with more harshness...).
One thing that I want to say for "Thefoxtooth", it's sometimes swaping cones doesn't give a huge improvement, or doesn't change anything at all, but sometimes if your guitar is a good one, she can give you very satisfying results but it will need a long time for the cones to bed in, so it could be frustrating if you have to use this guitar soon after...and sometimes dismatling a tricone may open few chances to create troubles.
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