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Post by markscrivener on Jul 28, 2021 8:50:36 GMT
Hello,
I have a Republic (single cone, biscuit) that I'm trying to get the most out of while I wait for a better instrument. The action is about 4/32" at the 12th fret (a touch high, but OK....National claims 3/32" is spec), and it plays fine below the 12th. The strings are almost straight over the bridge saddle (only a slight break angle), and there is a small ramp on the fretboard past the 15th fret. Above the 12th fret most strings fret out.
My options are:
1. Leve the neck angle alone, pull the frets, level the fretboard and re-fret.
or
2. Re set the neck angle and go from there (might still require the fretboard level).
So the question is, what should the neck angle be? I know old Nationals had a 90 deg neck angle, but this ain't no National. Should I aim for a neck angle that gives a sharper string relief over the bridge? Or should I just ignore the neck angle and fix the ski ramp?
Thanks in advance,
Mark
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Post by davey on Jul 28, 2021 9:31:27 GMT
If it sounds good and doesn't buzz at the bridge, and it plays well enough, I'd go for option one. In my opinion the break angle at the bridge should be " just enough" i.e. as shallow as you can get away with.
If you can take the saddle down by 1/16 you've got your 3/32 at the 12th fret.
If you reset the neck you have to change the angle by a very small amount, otherwise the tone goes and the cone can collapse. Mine did anyway, although that was a Mandolin.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 28, 2021 11:20:59 GMT
Hi Mark
Welcome to our forum.
We could do with seeing some photos, but the shallow break angle is a good thing as you really don't want too much. Your string height is fairly high, so if it is fretting out, something is amiss. Restting the neck is probably the correct thing to do, but that is an expensive job and it may not be worth spending that much on your guitar. There are only a few people in the UK that can work on these instruments. We need to see some photos to be able to advise you properly.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by pete1951 on Jul 28, 2021 13:18:07 GMT
On wood body resos, like the Dobro there is usually a small wedge under the finger board to accommodate the slight back angle of the neck. On Far Eastern National copies there is often a wedge inside that pushes up the top a little, so the end of the finger board is in line with the rest of the neck. Adjusting this will not change the action, but will drop the end of the f/b a little and remove the ski jump. They are sometimes glued in and difficult to adjust but it can be done Pete  The red wedge is pushing the body ( and the f/b ) up |
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Post by markscrivener on Jul 28, 2021 20:06:42 GMT
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 29, 2021 14:29:56 GMT
Mark, If it sounds great, I would be inclined to leave well alone. It could take a couple of mm more break angle from the tailpiece, but that would result in a higher bridge saddle which might take a little tone away. Working on this type of instrument is a whole different thing to working on regular guitars, so my advice is to leave it alone and enjoy.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Jul 29, 2021 19:14:18 GMT
One thing that’s not been mentioned is neck ‘relief’. Necks should have a very small curve, if the curve is too small the strings will buzz on the lower frets( especially if the action is low) too much and the action will be higher than it needs to be. How straight is your neck? Taking too much curve out will not cure the ‘ski jump’ but it might lower the action a little.
There are lots of YouTube videos on adjusting truss rods and neck relief
Pete
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Post by markscrivener on Jul 29, 2021 23:33:11 GMT
One thing that’s not been mentioned is neck ‘relief’. Necks should have a very small curve, if the curve is too small the strings will buzz on the lower frets( especially if the action is low) too much and the action will be higher than it needs to be. How straight is your neck? Taking too much curve out will not cure the ‘ski jump’ but it might lower the action a little. There are lots of YouTube videos on adjusting truss rods and neck relief Pete Yep, neck relief is fine. Looking at the ski jump some more, I see a few possibilities: -the neck was bolted down too tight -the wedge you mentioned was driven in too far -it wasn't straight to begin with or there is some other problem I'm going to investigate the wedge first and go from there. The ski jump is preventing lowering the action any further and needs to be solved. |
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Post by linkous on Jul 30, 2021 7:33:43 GMT
The history of musical instruments is full of bad designs, construction errors and cheap solutions, and that is normal. It is a fascinating search and discovery, a wonderful history of a bunch of geniuses and enterprising adventurers!
The strange thing is that these flaws have been built for decades (for example, how many Gibson headstocks have been broken over the past few decades? A few thousand?). And why? Probably in the name of tradition, nostalgia and marketing?
Anyway, with a resonator that fiddling with a wedge under the fretboard is also such an poorly designed and bad solution. Those who think a little further nowadays will discover that there are better, easier and even cheaper solutions to produce. Consider, for example, the fretboard support as with an archtop, which is perfectly achievable in combination with a neck stick construction.
Difficult to determine from your photos, but the string break angle seems fine, I would indeed look inside for that damn wedge..
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Post by pete1951 on Jul 30, 2021 8:35:15 GMT
Lowering the action ( by lowering the bridge) might not be a good thing, as the bridge goes down there is less weight on the cone. This could mean less volume and rattling from the edge of the cone .
The strings look quite close to the cover plate already
Pete
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 30, 2021 8:42:47 GMT
Pete is correct. The wedge should be looked at, but this guitar needs a neck reset to get it in proper working order.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by linkous on Jul 30, 2021 10:03:35 GMT
So the question is, what should the neck angle be? I know old Nationals had a 90 deg neck angle, but this ain't no National. Should I aim for a neck angle that gives a sharper string relief over the bridge? Or should I just ignore the neck angle and fix the ski ramp? Thanks in advance, Mark Can you imagine how low the strings would come over the cover plate at a 90 degree neck angle, Mark? Because the tailpiece rests on the cover plate (and the strings are attached a little higher), you should actually have a flat cover plate to keep some string break angle.. |
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Jul 30, 2021 10:14:33 GMT
I'll be blunt - this seems to be a heck of a lot of hassle to play up above the twelfth fret when you've got a better instrument coming. Who plays finger style above the 12th. fret on these things anyway? Get yersel' a slide....  |
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