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Post by 63vibroverb on Oct 4, 2020 16:52:02 GMT
Hey guys, Been a longtime lurker here and learned lots over the years. Finally have a question that I feel is worth asking. Is it possible to change the soundwell on a single cone triolian to a tricone configuration? I've always loved the complex tone of the tricones, but never really loved the art deco new age look of them. I figured this way, I could get the best of both worlds in one resonator. Not sure if the soundwell is permanently attached to the body or if it's removable? Also, I always wondered if the material of the soundwell (wood or metal) would have any bearing on the tone of the complete guitar? Thanks for the time and thoughts - maybe this will get me started on a new project!  |
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 4, 2020 17:52:46 GMT
Hi 63vibroverb
Welcome to our forum.
In theory it is possible to do, but fitting a Tricone soundwell into a single cone body does not really work with the design and shape. To get the whole T bridge assembly with three cones under a 9.5" coverplate requires the soundwell to be deeper, which in turn affects the volume and tone of the instrument in a negative way. Another problem with three cones in a single cone body is that there are not enough openings to let the sound out and therefore they sound boxy and not open and airy. The Dopyera brothers knew what they were doing and designed their instruments to optimise performance. Tricones with F holes and standard 9.5" coverplates do not sound as good as proper Tricone bodies do.
The material that the soundwell is made from makes a lot of difference. Brass, steel, German silver and various types of wood were/are used, but to get that right you need to do your research and make up some test sound wells. Otherwise, how are you going to know? Your question "Not sure if the soundwell is permanently attached to the body or if it's removable?" tells me that you don't know about the construction of resonator guitars, but I admire your spirit for wanting to try.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 4, 2020 18:37:43 GMT
...In addition to my previous post...
The sound of a real well built Tricone is sophisticated, rich, warm, full, and has loads of sustain. That is a completely different sound to what you get using a single cone body. You get a resophonic guitar sound, but it is not what a Tricone is supposed to sound like.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by pete1951 on Oct 4, 2020 19:27:42 GMT
Hi 63vibroverb, as MM says , to fit a tri-cone system in a single cone body means compromising the sound. I have played with resonator construction for 50 years or so and your idea of a conversion has lots of problems. The well is (usually) soldered onto the top, so it has to be done before the body is soldered together. It would be possible using a suitable donor (wooden) guitar to do what you want but the T bridge might hit the under side of a standard cover plate. (This means having an extra tall saddle, and extra deep well, to make it work, which I am told Mule do, this may reduce bass response). A Dobro style cover has a bit more room and might work.( There is at least 1 tricone body with a spider cone under the cover, so it might work the other way).
Don’t give up, and keep asking questions, most of the forum members are keen reso fans and happy to share ideas.
Pete.
I am very happy talking and helping if I can
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Post by leeophonic on Oct 4, 2020 19:51:02 GMT
  My Dobro was part of an experiment in 1990 at OMi Dobro, they made only a handful, looking inside, with the dimensions and what is involved unless the new pan is made before the back or top is soldered together then I would abandon the idea. Better to keep your triolian as is or sell it to fund some form of tricone if that is what you have in mind. Lee  |
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Post by calvoi on Oct 4, 2020 20:36:04 GMT
Perhaps the very rare OMI tricone in a single cone body (above) is the guitar you are looking for? Unfortunately as Lee mentions there were not many made. I’m sure one could be found if you asked the right people and were patient enough.
I think that modifying an existing guitar from single cone to tricone would require deconstructing the whole body and at that point you might as well have left the old guitar and started a brand new build instead.
Also if you aren’t a fan of the Art Deco tricone vibes you could take a look at some DonMo guitars. I think I remember him making a tricone with a very different aesthetic.
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Post by leeophonic on Oct 4, 2020 20:48:13 GMT
Looking at the original question, soundwell material and how it effects sound, funnily enough the Dobro I have has wood insert over a metal pan, so I guess it is neither fish no fowl, or the best/worst of both worlds, it plays well after a good service by Steve Evans, I have other tricones, they all have their own sound & tone, the Dobro has a shorter scale and that changes things also. Lee  |
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Post by 63vibroverb on Oct 5, 2020 0:44:48 GMT
Appreciate all the input, guys. I am not surprised by some of the thoughts, considering us guitarists can be extremely traditional folk! I will add that I would not expect a tricone configuration inside a single cone body to sound like a true art deco tricone. However, I wouldn't necessarily say it would definitely sound worse either (but it's very possible). Guess the only way to find out is to tri, right (pun intended)? I will try to address everyone's thoughts here. Michael - I have never taken apart a resonator or built one besides replacing cones and saddles, so yes I would agree with you that I don't know exactly how they're constructed yet. But I have seen some photos of soundwells that were screwed in, glued, soldered, or even just wedged in and held by the sides of the body. I guess seeing some of the non-permanently installed soundwells made me think that a conversion may be possible. pete1951 - I agree that all the dobro and spider bridge style coverplates I've seen are indeed taller and always allowed me to get higher action for slide. Would you say that a Tricone body is substantially deeper than a single cone body to accommodate the T-bridge and high saddle? Something that does give me hope is that I've seen Mule and Beard use some adapter soundwells that screw into the original single well, and allows the use of the T-bridge and 3 cones. Probably not as ideal as building it as a tricone from the start, but maybe it's an option (and reversible too). I believe Beard had a model called the "Tri-Sonic" that allows you to interchange the soundwells and cones between biscuit, spider, and tricone. It looks like Beard used a dobro/spider coverplate on that model as well. I wonder if anyone makes or modifies custom reso coverplates? It looks like the only obstacle is the palm rest over the bridge, which would just have to be raised/lengthened to accommodate a higher bridge/saddle. leeophonic - Wow, that's pretty close to what I want. I'd prefer a 12-fret setup personally. How does it sound compared to your other tricones? Any of the duolian/triolian character? Perhaps I'd like the wooden soundwell, but I'm not sure. calvoi - I'm definitely considering getting one built. It's possible that it may be my only option. Besides Mule, I don't know anyone else building a tricone like this. Crazy money too. If there are other builders out there, I'd be thankful for any suggestions! Have not heard of DonMo but I will look him up.   |
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Post by leeophonic on Oct 5, 2020 5:37:18 GMT
Have a look at Mike Lewis at Fine Resophonic in Paris, he has made a wooden Tricone in a 12 fret Trioian body, now that is something we all lust after.
Lee
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 5, 2020 8:53:29 GMT
Hi 63vibroverb
I completely understand your thoughts and reasons and I wish you success with your project.
I think sometimes it is a strange situation when a complete novice with no previous connection to the subject asks me for advice about an idea to do a home-build of something they fancy a go at. I have a 43 year connection to resophonic guitars. As well as dedicating my life to playing music, I have also dedicated my life to playing, researching, collecting and understanding National and Dobro instruments. My friends and I have spent decades discussing the ins and outs of every single detail of these instruments. So when I am having a conversation with someone that wants to have a go at doing something they've seen pictures of and have no understanding of anything about the instruments, I realise that I really should not be involved in the discussion.
Please continue to talk on this forum as you will get excellent advice from a group of people that really know their stuff, but it won't be from me.
I wish you well and I wish you success with your project.
With respect and best wishes,
Shine On
Michael
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Post by 63vibroverb on Oct 5, 2020 16:02:51 GMT
Michael - it seems I may have insulted you with my “traditional folk” comment, but rest assured I am poking fun at myself as well. Since I am a guitarist and I can be guilty of being traditional, I felt I could say that but apologies if you were offended. I realize that you have a lot of experience with the subject, however to assume that I’m a novice is a bit presumptuous. I’ve been playing 20+ years, 10 of those years so far on resonators. Been doing most of the tech work on my own guitars since I was 17, out of necessity. I play blues professionally and have received recognition in big magazines. Perhaps not as much experience as yourself, but not a novice either. But I am not here to get into a weight-throwing contest. If you sincerely believe I am trying to build a Harley out of a wheel barrow, that’s fine. People are allowed to disagree, right?
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 5, 2020 16:30:43 GMT
63vibroverb,
You didn't insult me at all, but it wasn't a great generalisation. We are absolutely entitled to disagree, which is why I chose to pull out of the conversation. You are using this forum exactly as it was intended to be used, so please don't let me stop you. You will receive the best advice there is from members of this forum.
I did make sure I said that my comments were said with the greatest respect and my assumption was not about your experience as a musician, it was about your experience as a luthier working on resonator guitars.
I have edited my post because maybe I wrote it in the wrong frame of mind. I like everyone to feel welcome on here.
I look forward to seeing how you get on. Please keep the forum up to date with your progress.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 5, 2020 17:48:17 GMT
63vibroverb, In addition to my previous post; When I read your reply I realised what I had written and how it must have come across. Everyone is treated as an equal on this forum, no matter how much or how little experience they have. It is not usually in my character to do that, but in these trying times we are all prone to behaving in ways that are not our usual patterns of behaviour.
This is a friendly and real community of people that respect each other.
I apologise for my outburst this morning.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by leeophonic on Oct 5, 2020 17:54:55 GMT
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Post by Michael Messer on Oct 5, 2020 18:09:15 GMT
 These two guitars, built my Mike Lewis, are works of art created by a master. I have drooled over this photo many times! The Tricone with the small coverplate is a copy of an instrument that National built as a prototype or test instrument back in their formative period, probably built in 1927. Mike's replica, which I saw and played last year, is about as close as you'll get to the real thing and while it is a stunning and extraordinary piece of work by the person I and many others consider to be the world's finest resophonic guitar builder, it does not have the sound of a proper Tricone. This is because of the lack of holes to let the sound out and is the reason they used large grilles on Tricone bodies. The amount of research and preparation Mike did to build this guitar and get it right, took years, not weeks or months. The other instrument is a custom build for a friend of Mike's and is an absolutely beautiful recreation of an early 1928 National Triolian. Shine On Michael |
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