National Advice

[Deleted]

Mar 10, 2019 12:20:40 GMT Michael Messer said:

Mar 10, 2019 10:55:58 GMT @graeme said:

Let's face it unless you have an ace soundman who REALLY knows what he's doing (a rarity in a live situation nowadays) then any half decent reso will suffice for live work..

Graeme, thank you for supporting my comments, most of which I agree with. However, the comment of yours that I have quoted is a debatable point.

I completely agree that if you are using a magnetic pickup and running your resonator guitar through a guitar amp, that you don't have to have Bukka White's National to get your sound. If you are relying on a microphone or a high quality pickup and running it through a PA system, I think the actual sound of the guitar is very important. In my own performances I only use a microphone and I rely on the fact that I know my guitar intimately and know everything it can do in my hands. I have been playing it for 20 years and I rely on its tonal character and quality to create my music. I recently heard someone playing a brass bodied guitar that came from that bloke that plays Indian blues and runs a forum. The guitar was fitted with an Austrian handmade pickup and was being played with a clean sound through a PA system. It sounded fantastic and to my ears in a bar with people talking in the background, it sounded easily as good as anything would in that environment. So while I disagree with some of what you said, I also agree. Is that a politicians answer!

Shine On
Michael

Fair comment sir! And yes there are some live sound engineers who know what they're doing!

[snakehips]

Hi again !

I respectfull6ydisagree with some of Michael’s points about untouched vintage Nationals.

My first vintage National, a gorgeous 14-fret neck Duolian, was virtually unplayable when I got it.
What was the point of me keeping it ? What was the point of me spending £1750 on it, way back in approx 1999, when I got it.
It seemed a LOT of money to waste on something I couldn’t play.
Quite a number of my other acquired Nationals were in the same boat when I bought them.

So, my points are this :

1. Why leave it unplayable ?
2. Will it be relegated to being a wall hanger ?
3. Wait a minute, these things are musical instruments. They were built to be played ! I should do whatever it takes (ideallly, as minimal as possible though) to get them playable again - and not just for me, but to the next generations. This way, they guitars will survive MUCH longer as actual instruments, instead of just useless wall-hanger antiques
4. Michael always seems to object to neck resets, saying they will all get set to a modern neck angle. They don’t have to be set at such a steep angle, so why be so presumptious that they ALL will ? That is crazy !

[Michael Messer]

Richard, what I disagreed with was the sweeping statement that ALL vintage Nationals require all or some of these things done, and that it is a myth to believe they don’t.

It is almost now a myth that you are going to find a vintage National that :

1. Doesn’t need a neck reset
2. Doesn’t need a banana’d neck straightened
3. Doesn’t perhaps need a new fretboard
4. Doesn’t need a resonator cone and/or biscuit replaced
5. Still has the original, and working tuners
6. Original finish in good condition


I don't recall ever having a neck reset on a National guitar. I certainly don’t think they should be wall hangers and I would be stupid not to accept that some do require work, and that a neck reset is the most common restoration job. I do not accept that finding a vintage National that doesn't require this is a "myth". I have also seen too many after their so-called restoration job that are over-compensated and that in turn affects the cone and biscuit, which then end up needing to be replaced. There are so many so-called experts out there ruining vintage guitars. Not just Nationals, but right across the board. While there is nothing I can do to stop them, I can voice my opinion about their work.

Whilst you and I go to the leading luthiers in Europe to have work done, there are many that don’t. Those other luthiers with no proper knowledge or understanding do use NRP specs as their benchmarks and they do screw up old guitars.

I guess I am lucky in as much as when most of my vintage National guitar obsession was going on, the guitars were between 50 and 70 years old, rather than now where they are between 70 and 90 years old. So I do accept that many, if left in original condition, may have past their peak.

A new fretboard... unless it is absolutely beyond repair, in my opinion is sacrilege.

New cone... if necessary, but I prefer not to.

Tuners... well, of course they should be repaired or replaced if they don't work. I don’t attach too much sentimental value on a set of tuners.

Disagreeing with each other and having serious discussions is what this forum is all about. There are loads of places online to to just be National freaks, but here we can agree, disagree and talk because we do know what we are talking about.

Shine On
Michael

[wilbotan]

Thanks all for taking the time to reply. There's so much to consider! Part of me wants to save up for a *proper* national but I'm not sure that I could give it the due consideration that they deserve - particularly so given the discussion here. I'm still considering the nrp replicon, though it has had a pickup added and I can't try it out so it already has a couple of strikes against it!

Thanks again, W.

[gordon]

I don't want to get involved in the debate over vintage Nationals, other than to say that I've played NRP guitars that I thought were great and vintage Nationals that were great too.
Just different, and as everyone would agree, there will never be any more old ones.
If you've got a Lightning that you really enjoy playing, if I were in your shoes I'd be trying out steel-body and wood-body resonators, just to see the difference. Have a good time trying different flavours before you put money down....!

[maui_chimes]

Mar 10, 2019 10:07:54 GMT Michael Messer said:

Of all the points in that list, the neck reset is probably the most common, but that doesn't mean it has to go to the angle of a new guitar, which then creates a whole load of other problems.

It really concerns me that almost everyone buying a vintage National these days, does all this work to them. You might as well buy a new guitar.

Interesting comments, I would agree that restraint and experience are in short supply when it comes to vintage National maintenance. Taken too far some spirit of the original maker is lost. We each have our own idea of "too much".

A proper neck reset is a fairly minimal adjustment that should not scare anyone. In the wrong hands, an overset neck can cause damage to the cone so make sure you are comfortable with who is doing the work.

The very common 12 fret Duolian models are usually the worst in terms of excessive neck relief and cracked fingerboards. These seem to be the most common victims of overly ambitious repair work. In my experience the higher end models with better neck and fingerboard woods rarely have severe problems and at most need a neck reset and fretwork, both of which I consider routine maintenance for any acoustic guitar.

[gaucho]

Michael, does you comment about Fretboard replacement being sacrilege apply to the Phenolic boards as well? Aren't they pretty hard to preserve if you have to remove them or pull the frets?

[Michael Messer]

Gaucho, those phenolic boards are basically compressed paper (its a sort of compressed paper mâché for those who don't know what we mean) and are definitely a bit trashy, but it cannot be denied that Duolians with those boards do sound and feel great, and they do sound different to steel bodied Nationals of the period with wood fretboards. I am of the opinion that every component contributes to the sound and feel. When a phenolic fretboard is changed to a wood board it slightly changes the feel, weight and sound, so I prefer whenever possible to keep the original fretboard. However, if it is not possible for various reasons, then it has to be changed. It sort of turns a Duolian into a Triolian, which in some ways defeats the object. I know I keep on saying it, but there will never be any more 12 fret Duolians with phenolic fretboards built and the more we preserve them, the better it is for us and for future generations. They are what they are.

Shine On
Michael

[petej]

Hi everyone as some of you guys know i have a 31 Duolian (may) infact it took my guitar to John Alderson well know luthier who makes reso guitars for a setup i took Johns advice, and had a neck reset during the work the fret board literaly started to fall to bits he did everything he could to preserve it,he contacted me withe pictures of how he tried to save it.but in the end he advised me to have a new fret board which he didn,t charge me for as he only quoted me for a neck reset, he he fitted new fret board nut and saddle, and fitted the old ivory dots in the fret board.if icould have gotten away without having any work done to it, i would have left it alone to preserve it,but when i got it back it had come back to life and is more playable and sounds amazing better than i thought it could ever sound,so if you want a wall hanger stick it on the wall and look at it and dream of what it was once like ,or get the work done on it and enjoy it ,till the next person gets and he can enjoy it too,
petej

[joephoto]

Graeme - You killed me with that "old farthood" 

Some of Snakehips comments could be edited a bit to get the seller's price down. I for one like to pay what the asking price is depending on how I value the piece.

        1. Needs a neck reset
        2. Needs a banana’d neck straightened
        3. Needs a new fretboard
        4. Needs a resonator cone and/or biscuit replaced
        5. Doesn't have the original, and working tuners

Andymccann - I agree with being a custodian of vintage instruments. I also believe, as I recall during a local radio interview with David Eugene Edwards of Sixteen Horsepower said that he believes instruments (and I believe everything from cameras to kitchen items to instruments) retain some of the energy or mojo as I like to put it of previous owners.  For examples, my great great uncle's Speed Graphic camera, my grandmother's pie plates and meat grinder, my National lap steel and Resophonic I feel all have something about them. But maybe I'm just a wacko.