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Post by wilbotan on Mar 7, 2019 14:29:17 GMT
Hi all,
Having been playing an MM Lightning for 6 months or so I've become a bit addicted to resonators! The lightning sounds brilliant, I just can't shake the urge to get a National. I've got a budget of around £1,200 but could stretch it slightly for guitar of a lifetime. With that budget I recognise that I'm not going to be able to purchase a real-deal National, however I've found an NRP Replicon Style O that is within budget. Does anybody have any experience with these guitars? I've checked out the thread about them, but wondering if there is any further advice.
It's about double what I've ever spent on any guitars previously so I'm nervous about pulling the trigger! Really annoyingly I can't go to play it, but I can return within two weeks if I'm not satisfied (and I just can't keep from crying).
Cheers in advance, and thanks to MM for such an amazing guitar and wealth of information on this forum!
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 7, 2019 14:51:15 GMT
Be careful.
An NRP ain't a real National even if it does have a similar logo and look.
Play it before you buy it and you'll be most likely to find that your MM Lightning is just as good, if not better.
My advice (FWIW) is to keep saving and wait a while until you can buy a real vintage National.
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Post by leeophonic on Mar 8, 2019 21:27:10 GMT
If you like a metal single cone you should also consider wood bodied resos and tricones they will all take you in different directions.
Message washboard chris on here he often has Nationals etc at very reasonable prices and he is a bona fide good guy.
Lee
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Post by purpleorange on Mar 9, 2019 15:05:55 GMT
however I've found an NRP Replicon Style O that is within budget. Does anybody have any experience with these guitars? The Replicon will be quite similar to the Lightning, might be better to get something a bit different. I would buy a 12 fret replicon if I could get one for less that £1200, send me the details of where to buy it if you decide not to go for it. |
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Post by creolian on Mar 9, 2019 15:59:07 GMT
Hi there,
I got the fever as well...
I can echo the idea that just because its a " national" does not mean that its a good guitar. Regardless of the name on the headstock or the price tag many reso guitars are set up to fail the inexperienced player. My suggestion, save up a bit more wherewithal, learn a bit more about how these things need to be set up and wait for the right individual guitar... many good deals can be had by someone who can spot an obviously bad set up on an otherwise good guitar. If I had not stumbled across this forum, my old cheapie wooden spider would either have been sold or forgotten. With a bit of setup, its at least a very playable beater.
Im waiting for the right 1930s vintage style O.
Good Luck on the Hunt !
J
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twtx
Serious MM Forum Member
Posts: 21
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Post by twtx on Mar 9, 2019 16:41:22 GMT
An NRP ain't a real National You're right. It's probably better. |
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Post by washboardchris on Mar 9, 2019 16:45:44 GMT
I agree that vintage Nationals have more soul and are very nice things to have but be warned you can be buying a lot of trouble. sometimes this can be due to the seller ( even music shops) having no idea what they have got and what has been done to them in the past.NRP are very nice guitars & i wont say that they are better than an old National(maybe a little sterile )but a unmolested NRP would be better than an old national that has been modified by someone who has no idea what they are doing.I have seen what would have been very nice instruments that have had some crazy things done to them
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Post by jono1uk on Mar 9, 2019 17:48:53 GMT
A properly set up MM blues ( with maybe a tuner and biscuit bridge swap) is just as good if not better then a modern National
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Post by blueshome on Mar 10, 2019 8:44:57 GMT
It’s your money and your ears, get to play it and if you like the sound and playability and it’s in good order then it might be for you. If not, move on and keep looking.
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Post by snakehips on Mar 10, 2019 9:24:13 GMT
Hi there ! I have not owned as many vintage Nationals as some, but between my friends’ Nationals, ones I have owned and ones I do still own, I must have seen about 20 vintage Nationals. I think I can say that after at least 80yrs (most I saw were nearly 90yrs old) since these left the National factory, it is almost now a myth that you are going to find a vintage National that : 1. Doesn’t need a neck reset 2. Doesn’t need a banana’d neck straightened 3. Doesn’t perhaps need a new fretboard 4. Doesn’t need a resonator cone and/or biscuit replaced 5. Still has the original, and working tuners 6. Original finish in good condition 7. Any/all of the above, AND at a “steal” of a price I think most issues like the above, with a vintage National, can be sorted sympathetically to the character and history of the guitar, with a very good luthier. So, if you can find one at a good price BUT needing work on it, it can still be brought back to life again. ALWAYS factor in the cost of repairs, when you buy a vintage National, so you have enough money left to do that. I like the finish on an old National to be mostly intact. As long as it looks cosmetically good, I’ll buy it, knowing full well I’ll probably need to spend more money on it when I get it. And if the guitar didn’t need anything done, then you have been extra lucky ! IF a vintage National has already been worked on, I’ll want to know who did the work, as I may well NOT buy the guitar if I don’t recognise the name of the luthier. Having said that, I have had 3 vintage Nationals I bought that had already been worked on by two respected, well known luthiers, but the guitars were lackluster in sound and playability, to my ears and hands anyway. I have had nothing but GREAT playing and sounding vintage Nationals, back from being restored by Dave King and by Steve Evans (Beltona), both from England. On prices, I got these two vintage Nationals below, on ebay, for circa $2000 each (I think one was $1850), which works our about £1600 each. They both needed quite a bit of work done to them - so I sent them to the best UK luthier for vintage Nationals I know, and spent £350 on each having necks straightened, new fretboards with hidden adjustable truss rods installed, one also needing a replacement cone. I also paid extra for having Highlander pickups installed BUT will not include that in the fees memtioned above, as we are just talking about the guitars themselves). Now these two are my best Nationals for gigging with. Very dependable, and they look and sound great ! So what I am sayings, do not fear vintage Nationals. They will always be way cooler than NRP guitars, IMHO, yet no disrespect intended to NRP and other resos. Attachments:
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 10, 2019 10:07:54 GMT
Each to their own opinions, but I'm afraid I disagree about all vintage National guitars needing all, or most of that suff done to them.
The problem, IMO, is that the 'norm' and the benchmark has become a National Reso-Phonic NRP guitar.
Of all the points in that list, the neck reset is probably the most common, but that doesn't mean it has to go to the angle of a new guitar, which then creates a whole load of other problems.
It really concerns me that almost everyone buying a vintage National these days, does all this work to them. You might as well buy a new guitar.
Oh, and I am really not trying to have any kind of competition in any way, but I have seen and played many hundreds of vintage National guitars. In my immediate circle of friends I can think of somewhere around 300.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 10, 2019 10:25:53 GMT
....and one more point on that subject which is kind of in defence of Snakehips' comments; when I fist got into all this a 1930 National was less than 50 years old and now they are 90 years old. The thing that worries me about this situation, which in some ways is a testament to the workmanship at the National factory (I mean the real National factory), is that people are still buying 90 year old guitars and expecting them to be roadworthy gigging tools. Of course the metal, or the 6mm plywood bodies will last forever, but the other components don't. I am not sure any more about 90 year old antiques being used as road tools. Recently I have seen young musicians buying beautiful old Triolians and Duolians, fixing a pickup and a strap button on them and turning them into workhorse road tools. It's up to them and my opinion means nothing, especially to a young person, but there will never be any more 1930s Nationals built. In some ways I can obviously see how cool it is because I got into it in the same way, but it does sadden me to see it happening. I never trashed an old National, but these days there really is no need to because there are excellent reproduction ones being built in all price brackets.
Shine On
Michael
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 10:55:58 GMT
Very true Michael. Unfortunately it takes the wisdom that comes with old farthood to really respect anything vintage,be it a guitar,car or a piece of furniture.
Keep the oldies for home use or recording I say. Let's face it unless you have an ace soundman who REALLY knows what he's doing (a rarity in a live situation nowadays) then any half decent reso will suffice for live work. Before I was fortunate enough to acquire my first vintage National I assumed that the metal ones at least were bulletproof. I took a little while to realise that this only applied to the body and the 'mechanism' for want of a better word is actually quite delicate and like all vintage instruments of any description needs to both be set up to perfection and in the hands of a good and sensitive musician.
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 10, 2019 12:20:40 GMT
Let's face it unless you have an ace soundman who REALLY knows what he's doing (a rarity in a live situation nowadays) then any half decent reso will suffice for live work.. Graeme, thank you for supporting my comments, most of which I agree with. However, the comment of yours that I have quoted is a debatable point. I completely agree that if you are using a magnetic pickup and running your resonator guitar through a guitar amp, that you don't have to have Bukka White's National to get your sound. If you are relying on a microphone or a high quality pickup and running it through a PA system, I think the actual sound of the guitar is very important. In my own performances I only use a microphone and I rely on the fact that I know my guitar intimately and know everything it can do in my hands. I have been playing it for 20 years and I rely on its tonal character and quality to create my music. I recently heard someone playing a brass bodied guitar that came from that bloke that plays Indian blues and runs a forum. The guitar was fitted with an Austrian handmade pickup and was being played with a clean sound through a PA system. It sounded fantastic and to my ears in a bar with people talking in the background, it sounded easily as good as anything would in that environment. So while I disagree with some of what you said, I also agree. Is that a politicians answer! Shine On Michael |
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Post by Andymccann on Mar 10, 2019 12:57:36 GMT
I like to think of myself as a custodian of old instruments. I don’t have a vintage national but I have the same passion for the Oscar Schmidt instruments I have. I don’t want to change them. They are what they are. I don’t want to play them to destruction and any repairs need to be done well and sympathetically. Most of all I want someone else in 90 years to enjoy them as I have. Let’s not put them all in a cupboard until then but treat them well. Surely the builders of these survivors never thought for one minute they would make it into the 21st century let alone talk of keeping them into the 22nd or 23rd
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