Buzzing diagnosis help please - National Tricone

[richclough]

Spoke to Steve at Beltona guitars (thanks for the recommendation Michael, he's been really helpful). Apparently it's not uncommon for cones to show signs of wear. My cones show it very clearly. The bass cone nearest the neck is starting to flatten on two sides symmetrically, the bridge bass cone has some flattening and there is the outline of the tbar arm in the top. The treble cone is relatively unscathed. Steve's view agreed with Deuce's that the buzzing is most likely to be an issue with the rim of one of the cones.

I've tried to repeat Michael's "pencil process" with the cover plate off. Whilst it hasn't helped, I can see how it would work.

Looking at the physics of the Tricone there must be a tendency for the cones to shift towards the neck, simply because the break angle will provide a lateral pressure. Over time this would in some cases cause one or more of the cones to contact the side walls of the well or the ridged area between the cones. As Deuce notes, it's not helped by the fact that there is only about 2mm of clearance. Several attempts to move the cones to more central positions with the cover plate off have not produced lasting results. I suspect that the bass cones are now different heights.

Whilst I've got some Hotrod cones on the way - currently stuck in Customs near Birmingham - I've taken another tip from Steve and swapped the cones around. Taking them out and looking from the side shows that they have all deformed to some extent. The two bass cones have now exchanged places. I've also gently cleaned the cones and the well. Brought it up to pitch and let's see if it settles.

Fingers crossed, but I suspect that this guitar will end up with Steve in Leeds at some point soon.

Thanks again everyone for the advice.
Cheers,
Rich

[richclough]

Well the new Hotrod cones arrived last week. I put them into the guitar, but am still suffering from buzzing - this time from the treble cone. The action at the 12th fret also increased by 1mm or so.

So tonight I drove to Wakefield and handed it over to Steve at Beltona. He's going to set it all up properly and install the Krivo pickup that I bought a while back (I love the Sixtus on my Busker Deco, but the Krivo sounds as good and looks a bit better). He's a really nice chap, very forthcoming. I also got a chance to try one of his 'Southerner' fiberglass single cones.

So I've learned a few new things:

1) The old cones on my 1996 Tricone have an extra turned up edge/rim that is not present on the Hot rods. This has no obvious use, but makes buzzing more likely by reducing the gap between the cones and edges of the pan.
2) The Hot rod Tricone cones are not a direct slot in - set-up is required, at least for my 1996 guitar.
3) My guitar, a relatively early NRP tricone, doesn't have as many coverplate screws as later guitars. According to Steve, they moved from 9 to 12 at some point. The buzzing I have isn't the coverplate, but it's worth knowing. 
4) Steve noted that the relief on the neck was too much - reducing the relief will improve the break angle on the bridge.
5) Bedding in the cones is helped by the application of Pritt Stick - who knew? This could really help when reassembling and refitting strings. 
6) I'm not generally a fan of single cones. I've tried quite a few National versions at Frailers in Runcorn. Of their stock, the one I liked best was the Resorocket, but they all seemed a bit 'Banjoey' and 'plunky'. I'm a Tricone kinda guy - less atttack, more sustain, more vocal kind of sound. However, the sustain and attack of Steve's fiberglass singlecone is very different from other singlecones. Apparently fiberglass is stiffer than both wood and metal and as a result the cones project differently.  And they can be painted in funky colours! I feel GAS.

Will update when I pick it up this weekend.
Cheers,
Rich

[jono1uk]

Hi Rich

Have you tried an MM Blues?
it certainly isn't "Banjoey" or "Plunky" ...I would say "Growly" ..

[richclough]

Sept 13, 2018 8:13:39 GMT jono1uk said:

Hi Rich

Have you tried an MM Blues?
it certainly isn't "Banjoey" or "Plunky" ...I would say "Growly" ..

Hi Jono,

No I haven't tried any of the MM guitars - yet anyway.

I suppose what I mean by 'Banjoey/Plunky' is the balance between the volume of the initial attack and the volume/duration of the sustained note.

To my ears tricones typically have less volume on attack, but higher volume/duration on the sustained note than singlecones. Also they have less focus on the fundamental note and more overtones. For my voice, style of playing, and the stuff I write, a tricone works best I think....at the moment anyway. 

I've not yet found a singlecone that spoke to me like tricones can* 

Cheers,
Rich

*i.e. yelled "BUY ME! YOU NEED ME! I FIT PERFECTLY INTO THAT HOLE IN YOUR GUITAR COLLECTION THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WAS THERE BEFORE YOU PICKED ME UP. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU NEED TO EAT?! YOU DON'T! NO! COME BACK HERE! DON'T WALK AWAY! YOU'LL REGRET IT!"

[bonzo]

Love it! I've had quite a few guitars say very similar things to me!

Best wishes to you all, John

[richclough]

Hi all,

Another update. Got the guitar back from Steve's yesterday. Really happy with the job done. Truss rod adjustment, new nut (due to first fret buzz on open 6th string), action down to 3mm bass and 2.5 treble, new Hotrod cones in correctly, cover plate holes widened due to misalignment, Krivo pickup fitted and tailpiece holes also widened. Really lovely job all in all, plays superbly, no buzzing!

However, it does sound different. I noticed this immediately after I fitted the new cones and before Steve worked on it. Some of the overtones have gone, it's still a great sound, but rounder, punchier, more direct and less complex/evolving.

So having looked online at various views as to whether cones take time to 'bed in' or 'age' I'm none the wiser as to whether this is the final sound of the guitar or whether it will evolve further? Some have the view that the whole caboodle - cones, body, neck, bridge etc - will need time to settle. But, opinions seem to be mixed to say the least. If anyone has fitted Hotrods to an NRP Tricone over the last few years can you please share your experience?

I would like the original sound back, if I can.

Cheers,
Rich

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2018 11:02:54 GMT richclough said:

I've not yet found a singlecone that spoke to me like tricones can* 

*i.e. yelled "BUY ME! YOU NEED ME! I FIT PERFECTLY INTO THAT HOLE IN YOUR GUITAR COLLECTION THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WAS THERE BEFORE YOU PICKED ME UP. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU NEED TO EAT?! YOU DON'T! NO! COME BACK HERE! DON'T WALK AWAY! YOU'LL REGRET IT!"

Having only played 12f heavy metal tricones previously (and shifted all of them), I've gotta say I love my lightweight slimline homemade wooden tricone to bits best.
TT