Buzzing diagnosis help please - National Tricone

[richclough]

Hi,

I've now owned my secondhand 1996 National Tricone for about 3 weeks. Loving it.

But, there is a buzz....

I normally play slide in open G and C, however I have a couple of DADGAD tunes as well.
I'm getting a nasty buzz on the open middle D. I've changed the strings and tightened all the cover plate screws. No joy, but I've found that it disappears if I push down gently on the tailpiece.

That could be because of a couple of things - slightly changing the break angle of the strings over the bridge or increasing the string tension slightly.

Anyone seen this before? Any ideas of an easy fix? I'm in the studio a week tomorrow and was hoping to record these tunes...

Any help gratefully received.

Cheers,
Rich

[Michael Messer]

Hi Rich,

I will reply in detail in a while.

Shine On
Michael

[bonzo]

Hi Rich,check to see if the ball ends of the strings are rattling against the body. You might be able to jiggle them into a better position if so. Or slide a thin peice of card under them. I think that's where your problem might be.
Good luck.
Best wishes to you all, John

[bonzo]

Rich, Michael was typing at the same time as me. He's your man!

[Michael Messer]

Hi Rich

Tricones are not as durable as single cone biscuit bridge or spider bridge resonator guitars. They are prone to buzzes and rattles and some of them don't like being retuned too often. When they are really good ones and all components match perfectly, they can be retuned all over the place and they don't buzz. However, all this depends on how they are played. They do not like being played hard with bare fingers and they do not take kindly to being played by someone who does not have what I call "cone awareness". I am not saying that is you, but I am trying to stress that Tricones are unique and need to be treated with care. When played by someone that understands them, they can be thwacked and twanged all night long and never buzz.

Here's a few tips to find and get rid of the buzz-rattle, whatever it's called!

Do not press down on the tailpiece, you are probably making it worse. The reason it disappears when you do that is because you are putting more pressure on the cones and therefore stopping it rattling.

From your description, and this really is guess work without actually having the guitar in my hands, the buzz is likely to be coming from the top of the cones where the T bridge pins go into the top of each cone. For some reason it has become unsettled and certain frequencies set off a nasty noise.

This is what I would do. This is so hard to explain and yet so easy for me to do. Loosen the strings a few turns so that they are still giving some tension, but loose enough for the cones to be moved around on the soundwell. Very slightly and only a fraction or so.... first wiggle the T bridge around, not enough to move anything, but enough to re-seat the T bridge. Next, get maybe two little sticks, pencils are perfect and push the T bridge back towards the tailpiece - only a fraction, but enough to hear that the cones moved on the soundwell. Then gradually bring the string back up to pitch and pray. Pray hard and beg for John and Rudy Dopyera's forgiveness!!! Maybe leave it for a while before playing it. That "might" have done the trick. Usually pushing the whole thing, the T bridge and cones back does sort out the problem. If that doesn't work we will have to explore further.

Where are you based? I am asking so that if you need help, I might know someone in your neck of the woods.

Tricones are devils and only people with experience of original and new Nationals, and one or two other makers, are able to understand and cure rattles properly.

I have a tool that Mike Lewis gave me for reseating the tops of cones. Luckily and touch wood and all that, I have rarely used it.

If you do get rid of the problem you need to consider the way you are playing and adapt so you don't cause this again. I learnt all this decades ago on a couple of 30s style ones that I had, and ever since then through a few 30s round and square necks and my Fine Resophonic square neck, I have not had problems. Oh...I tell a lie, I do remember taking a style 4 square neck Tricone apart in the cafe on an overnight ferry once. Sometimes it has to be done!

If the problem persists, you will need to take it to an expert.

I hope all that is helpful. Let me know.

Best wishes

Shine On
Michael.

[Deleted]

Great post MM--I regard both the tricone and the bagpipe (and I own both) as"the de'ls instrument" and not the violin. I'm on the fence with the rattles though. A small degree of rattling to my ears is desirable as long as it doesn't detract from the performance or irritate the player.

[richclough]

Thanks Michael for responding at such length and in such detail.

Sadly I play with bare fingers and reinforced nails -silk and resin. I suspect that isn't something that's going to change, but I take your point about being careful. I'd appreciate any further information on 'cone awareness'. 😉

I've tried the reseating, brought the strings up to pitch and now I'll leave the guitar until tonight before playing. I'll tell you how it goes.

Oddly enough, I've reseated my old Busker Deco to correct intonation several times - suspect the wells for the cones are too big in that one.

Anyway, fingers crossed! Our John and Rudy, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.....

Cheers,
Rich

[Deleted]

What gauge strings are you using Rich?
TT

[richclough]

Hi everyone,
Looks like that sorted it, once I reread Michael’s instructions and did it properly!
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Cheers,
Rich
P.S. Deuce - I use 13-56 PB Elixirs, but swap the 13 for a 15.

[Michael Messer]

Rich, that's brilliant news!

Phew.... I am sure that one day someone will find out that I am just winging it

Seriously... I am pleased for you that it has worked

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2018 22:46:05 GMT Michael Messer said:

Rich, that's brilliant news!

Phew.... I am sure that one day someone will find out that I am just winging it :-X

Seriously... I am pleased for you that it has worked

Shine On
Michael

I've always known that Michael but you do it so well I can't help but take my hat off to you!

[richclough]

Hi folks,

Well the rattle is back - seems to love D notes. I’ve tried a few times tonight to repeat the process described by Michael, but to no avail.

I’ve had a final go and am going to leave it overnight now to see if it settles.

Michael - can you recommend someone in the Northwest who can have a look at this please? I’m based within easy distance of Manchester and Liverpool, but can travel further.

Cheers,
Rich

P.s. What does that tool look like? 😀

[Michael Messer]

Hi Rich

In the North West of the country, I guess your best bet is Steve Evans at Beltona Guitars in Leeds. I know it's not west, but...

This may be something that is triggered by your playing, but until you get it looked at by an expert, of which there are very few, you won't know.

Let me know how it goes.

Shine On
Michael

[richclough]

Opened it up.
Cones deformed. One has a crease where the tbar was pushed into it. Suspect it’s been overtuned.
Caveat emptor I guess. Least it’s not my playing.
Suspect I’m in the market for a set of hotrod cones now.
Very sad chap tonight.
😭
Rich

[Deleted]

I have another theory about tricone buzz. You notice that the well has a rounded edge where the cones sit up to. It really only takes a fraction of a mm onto that edge area to raise the cone enough to cause a buzz.
TT