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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 8, 2018 14:30:18 GMT
Please don't larf but.....
I've just been knocking about on an old Regal parlour guitar and I noticed it sounded particularly sweet today.
Before I put it down I checked the tuning with my Snark and found that instead of being in open D it was somewhere between C and C#.
OK, the temperature and humidity have gone up in the last few days so I tuned up to open D.
It did not sound as sweet.
Tuned it back to where it had come from and it sounded much sweeter/better.
Intrigued, I then took up my ancient skip dive special which was tuned to open D and sounding sweet and tuned it to the Regals C and a bit.
Did not sound so good.
Tuned it up to D and a bit - sounded worse. Took it back to D and all is fine and sweet.
Both guitars are strung with Martin Retro 12s, both have the same scale length, both have fretted bridges with tailpieces, both have slotted headstocks.
The Regal is birch and the skip dive special has a spruce top and oak (I think) sides and back.
The Regal has a wooden nut and the skip dive special has a bone nut.
I have not tried tuning any of my other guitars to hear what happens - yet.
I've never really noticed this phenomenon in all my days before.
Has any one else?
....or are my ears finally shot?
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Post by slide496 on Mar 8, 2018 15:25:12 GMT
I've found that my ladder braced acoustics are individually sensitive to humidity,temperature, key and age of string and I deal with that per machine.
Some are set up with lights, some pb, some 80/20 and some have a custom set up with regard to gauges - I keep a chart of the type of string and upgrade it if I change it.
Mine are set up dedicated to key - I don't use one guitar and tune it up and down.
Just to add: The resonance on each varies on mine one from the other under similar conditions and one thing I overlooked is that the guitars are different shapes.
Lawd lawdy,
Harriet
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Post by mitchfit on Mar 8, 2018 20:47:34 GMT
so much empirical data out there.
so much marketing mojo.
so many sound board, body and neck woods [and other materials].
so many bridge materials and string break angles.
so many nut materials and string break angles.
you eliminated string and scale variables.
there are likely even differences humans can hear from the same
make/model/factory consecutive serial # guitars.
1--the science gives us an electronic representation of the wave
energy profile and characteristics.
2--the market says it's all an occult derived ancient information
or based on proven traditional designs.
1 only?
2 only?
1 and 2?
the ear says it hears a difference.
we share some of the same DNA with snakes, yet their vision is
entirely different than our own.
can an electronic device detect all of the information sapiens'
ear can detect? it doesn't even have DNA.
you present an interesting question.
mitchfit
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 8, 2018 21:26:42 GMT
PD, the answer to your question is "yes" instruments do have their own resonance, or pitch in which they sound best. We do too. Certain keys come naturally to singers.
There are natural keys that everyone from certain parts of the world all gravitate towards. F# in West African music is an example of that.
Also, I believe that the sounds we are surrounded by affect our musical pitch.
One of the things that we westerners do, is force ourselves and our instruments into certain keys because that key may suit our voice or the musical style better than others. This is not common in Africa or Asia.
I believe that years and decades of playing a stringed instrument in a particular tuning and key, does affect how it sounds in that and other keys. Everything vibrating at particular frequencies over and over again, will affect an instrument's tone.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by creolian on Mar 9, 2018 0:18:44 GMT
PD, Guitars must have resonant frequencys or they would sound no different than just strings vibrating by themselves sans instrument. Air volume, shape, holes, size and material will make a difference in what frequency(s) create sympathetic resonance and how loud it sounds. With an acoustic guitar All of the energy is in the initial string vibration. A guitar cannot add energy but it should (and hopefully does) maximize that energy in a way that sounds good. I'd bet that if you took a signal generator, pumped some sound at the guitar and swept it through the audible spectrum you would find the dominant frequency that the guitar resonates at right near that C note along with multiple even and odd harmonics. Not so much a "specific" resonance, but certainly a dominant frequency along with others that give the instrument it's voice and timbre. My experience is more with sound systems and room acoustics... And IMhO yer ears ain't shot, they are just becoming more finely tuned  Enjoy! Jeff |
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 9, 2018 8:27:10 GMT
Something I didn't make clear in my original post is that these "sweeter" results occur all over the fretboard, fingerstyle and slide for each guitar in their own "best" tuning. I will repeat the experiment in my sons presence over the weekend and see what they think..... Michael, that comment about West African music being in F# fascinates me as this is my natural singing key which doesn't really help when playing the stuff that I like on conventional guitar. Jeff - my lugs are nearly 69 years old and have a history of sheet metalwork, kart racing, playing in electric bands, working in paper mills, a lot of flying in aeroplanes and 49 years of marriage - and I've got a long term inner canal infection. Maybe I've subconciously learned to filter out the carbon bibaxide most of the time.  Keep the ideas coming, folks. |
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 9, 2018 10:05:24 GMT
If it's just a resonance, then you might expect the guitar to sound no so good with a capo on the 2nd fret. I suspect that string tension has a hand in this. You could try going 1gauge thinner and tuning to D? This should let you hear D at roughly the same tension as C C# with the present string, .
PT
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Post by slide496 on Mar 9, 2018 12:45:25 GMT
Maybe you want to factor in mass, weight and shape of the compared instruments - the shape of the cavity being influenced by bracing and the like?
Lawd lawdy,
Harriet
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Post by creolian on Mar 9, 2018 16:30:31 GMT
Maybe I've subconciously learned to filter out the carbon bibaxide most of the time. Another cruel paradox. As we age, our hearing deteriorates while our listening abilities improve. I apologize if it seemed as if I was making light of hearing loss. I find it disconcerting and scary that my ears sometimes ring at some dog whistle frequency and certainly can relate to living and working in a sonically abusive environment and now paying for it. Along with other variables mentioned, Just Given the fact that no two pieces of wood are identical, every guitar is going to be somewhat an individual in its "voice." I think you may have hit on what sometimes makes identical model guitars very different from one to another and why there are occasionally ones that seem more musical than most. "carbon bibaxide". Had to think about that one for a few minutes... Lol, I'm borrowing it fer sure. |
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Post by Stevie on Mar 9, 2018 16:33:43 GMT
I've certainly noticed the odd note played on some string or another seeming to develop a life of its own and "blooming" above the others, but for me that just indicates a resonant frequency that (as previously noted) affects all instruments and structures in general. As you'd expect though, if it does manifest it's never the same note on any given instrument other than by coincidence. It has been stated many times on here that the break angle over the saddle on a resonator can either be insuficient to drive the cone or excessive and thus choke the notes. Get the angle in the correct ball park and the instrument benefits across the spectrum, but I'm fairly certain this is not the same as resonance. Resonance would not in my opinion affect all the strings and notes simultaneously.
e&oe...
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 9, 2018 16:44:03 GMT
No Jeff, no need to apologize - I was the one making light of my hearing loss. It can be beneficial sometimes and, very rarely, infuriating.  Stevie - I think I've used the word "resonance" when I mean "overall sound on all notes played" - sometimes words get in the way...... One tuning gives an apparent improvement in sweetness over other tunings... Does that make any better sense? More experimenting and my sons aural opinions will be posted when I have them. |
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Post by davey on Mar 9, 2018 22:23:22 GMT
I think where you play suits some instruments better than others. I play mainly Mandolin these days and have half a dozen of them. One day it's the old Gibson that sounds good, the next day it's a different one. I can only think it's the room & the acoustics that change. I've tried recording them and by and large they all sound the same, from a 1910 Gibson to a virtually new luthier made one.
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Post by pete1951 on Mar 10, 2018 8:57:10 GMT
I believe that years and decades of playing a stringed instrument in a particular tuning and key, does affect how it sounds in that and other keys. Everything vibrating at particular frequencies over and over again, will affect an instrument's tone. Shine On Michael I have come across several scientists who say 'playing-in' an instrument does not change it's sound, virtually all pro. musicians say things happen playing something for a long time. PT |
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Post by Stevie on Mar 10, 2018 10:42:51 GMT
And no self respecting "scientist" would factor in "Mojo" (sic). Some (eg) 1950s Fenders are wonderful and some are so-so (or so I'm told...) They're all worth silly money and have gallons of "Mojo".
So long as no double blind objective comparisons are carried out, the scientists opinion is worth no more than a musician's. That said- timber dries out over time and both my ears and logic tells me that it must have an impact on *tone*. Unless and until I carry out any tests, such an opinion is about as worthless as your average garden variety scientist's.
e&oe...
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Mar 10, 2018 11:22:41 GMT
The "experiment" has been carried out. We tried 'em in the bedroom, we tried 'em in the hall, we tried 'em in the lounge and in the corners by the wall. (there's a song there somewhere ). All tunings between C open and Eb open using fingerstyle and slide, no picks. The majority view is that it is my ears rather than the guitars, surprise, surprise. My eldest did point out that the skip dive special tended to feel very slightly "slacker" at the same tuning as the Regal and he reckons that I play it slightly harder / more aggressively than I play the Regal. There you go..... ain't science wonderful?  |
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