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Post by creolian on Sept 29, 2017 1:27:13 GMT
Hello all,
Im wondering if modifying or maybe using a different tailpiece might be one way to lower the action on my NRP Delphi. It's got the strings slung under the tail currently, the break angle is too severe and it's intonation is really off...and I managed to crack the bridge this evening. If I wasn't guitar rich and money poor I'd just send it to Marc S. for a neck reset and finger style setup.
It seems I could section the tailpiece to take out an inch or so allowing the strings to have a lower anchor point above the radius of the cover plate and get a couple mm ? Maybe theres a bar trapeze tailpiece like a Gibson l50 or ES125 that would work ? How would changing anchor points increasing string length affect things ? What is a correct break angle?
Any experience or caveats much appreciated.
All best and TIA
Jeff
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 29, 2017 7:49:27 GMT
Hi Jeff
Can we see some photos please?
Understringing the tailpiece is really bad for everything, that is why your bridge saddle broke.
Yes, different tailpieces can make a difference.
Some photos would really help. It is impossible to advise you without seeing it.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by creolian on Sept 29, 2017 16:52:55 GMT
 Hi Jeff Can we see some photos please? Understringing the tailpiece is really bad for everything, that is why your bridge saddle broke Yes, different tailpieces can make a difference. Some photos would really help. It is impossible to advise you without seeing it. Shine On Michael hello Michael In the interest of proving to myself that i exist,  i have... dug out the old macbook, dead battery, hanging by charge cord... tever works, fingers crossed etc etc.   if I can get the bridge anchor point down to the edge of the cover, will I suffer other issues ? All best, Jeff edit: hot dang ! it worked. New Avatar, Robert Pete Williams, N.O. Jazz Fest 1974 or so. Original Ekatachrome scanned and converted to Monochrome. Took by me. Photos of my Chillns soon to come  |
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Post by Stevie on Sept 29, 2017 18:16:02 GMT
Hey Jeff,
What is the height of the strings? We cannot see your main issue (as in the action).
The break angle does not look too severe to me although MM and others more experienced than myself would probably be a better judge. If I am correct in that assertion then just as MM has stated, there is no reason whatsoever to "understring" the tail piece. Understringing is a temporary fix for an underlying issue that will over time become so severe that this approach will be pointless.
If others are in agreement regarding the break angle then a little adjustment of the saddle height might be the first step to address the action? Speaking personally, I am willing and ready to accept a higher action than I would on a regular acoustic. It goes along with the relatively heavier strings and it's character building!
Anyone else?
e&oe...
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Post by creolian on Sept 29, 2017 18:53:31 GMT
Hey Jeff, What is the height of the strings? We cannot see your main issue (as in the action). The break angle does not look too severe to me although MM and others more experienced than myself would probably be a better judge. If I am correct in that assertion then just as MM has stated, there is no reason whatsoever to "understring" the tail piece. Understringing is a temporary fix for an underlying issue that will over time become so severe that this approach will be pointless. If others are in agreement regarding the break angle then a little adjustment of the saddle height might be the first step to address the action? Speaking personally, I am willing and ready to accept a higher action than I would on a regular acoustic. It goes along with the relatively heavier strings and it's character building! Anyone else? e&oe... At the moment, the action at 12th fret is 3mm on the treble, 2mm on the bass. The top of the saddle split on that side and I may have a collapsed cone. It doesn't look as bad (the break angle) as it did before I thumb wailed on it (trying to stop consiously thinking about damping). Ive yet to look under the bonnet, something to do while England is invaded by American football. ( which I generally consider good guitar practice time ) I knew this guitar needed a thorough set up as it came to me with the strings under slung and a drastically cut down saddle. Other than a "fix" to bring it to my liking, The cone is at least 20 years old and I figured a new one wouldn't be a stretch... Even if i reset the neck it still seems a deal at 700$. I'll probably just bite the bullet and bring it to a reso doctor. There is a republic dealer here who says they can fix it up, including a neck set for 350 total. Much better than the 600 another shop wants for a neck reset alone. I'm learning... Now if I could only learn the "easy" way  I hear ya on the "character building" This last 9 months of reso playing and I have a hard time controlling .10s on the electrics and my thumb has "muscles" I never knew we're there... All best, Jeff |
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Post by Stevie on Sept 29, 2017 19:36:26 GMT
It may sound like heresy J, but from my perspective your bass "E" is too low so I am not the best person to advise you here. Sounds like a cop-out but I think you have different expectations from me! Perhaps MM, Pete1951, TT, Fredcapo or any one of the many other coneheads on here can help?
e&oe...
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Post by creolian on Sept 29, 2017 20:22:22 GMT
It may sound like heresy J, but from my perspective your bass "E" is too low so I am not the best person to advise you here. Sounds like a cop-out but I think you have different expectations from me! Perhaps MM, Pete1951, TT, Fredcapo or any one of the many other coneheads on here can help? e&oe... Not at all Steve. It's a picture of a guitar with a broken saddle which I'll post a photo of when I take it apart. Just to clarify, my question is about lowering action via tailpiece which at least superficially seems an option on my republic as well. Heresy? The way they are made, I'm tempted to crush some of the wave at the end of the tail with a vise... No expectations, but I do appreciate any ideas and time/effort in your response. The opportunity to post a question here at all is something I'm very grateful for. Brother, I like "heresy" as without it, this might be a lute forum . On the other hand, it's caused me some self inflicted bruising... Off to the races... jeff |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2017 21:32:20 GMT
You have to check the cone first - everything else depends on it being OK.
But I'm unsure what you mean by lowering the action via the tailpiece. I guess with a less acute break angle, the cone may sit up a fraction higher, but that might not even be noticeable.
If the cone is OK, I'd say the action could go a little higher, especially on the bass end (i.e. new saddle, or repair and shim the old one. Then string the tailpiece correctly, and it might all work again!
As for action, I never actually measure any distances. If it feels in the right 'range' I keep it like that. The action on my OMI is probably 'too high' but I can live with it, especially as it gives the best slide tone. I'd kick myself if I lowered it and never got that tone back again.
The action on a couple of dobros is probably too low for slide - when I play slide on them, it sounds a little weak. But I tend to play DADGAD mainly on them, and it suits that.
TT
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Post by creolian on Sept 29, 2017 23:41:42 GMT
You have to check the cone first - everything else depends on it being OK. But I'm unsure what you mean by lowering the action via the tailpiece. I guess with a less acute break angle, the cone may sit up a fraction higher, but that might not even be noticeable. If the cone is OK, I'd say the action could go a little higher, especially on the bass end (i.e. new saddle, or repair and shim the old one. Then string the tailpiece correctly, and it might all work again! As for action, I never actually measure any distances. If it feels in the right 'range' I keep it like that. The action on my OMI is probably 'too high' but I can live with it, especially as it gives the best slide tone. I'd kick myself if I lowered it and never got that tone back again. The action on a couple of dobros is probably too low for slide - when I play slide on them, it sounds a little weak. But I tend to play DADGAD mainly on them, and it suits that. TT Hello TT My thought was that if I can shorten the tail so that the end is not resting on the raised part of the cover it would lower the point at which the strings exit and allow me to lower the saddle while maintaining a good break angle. Maybe not lowering the action a whole lot but at least putting more even force on the saddle. I'd settle for pretty much what I had without the under slung strings, just spitballing the idea... I'm not much on measuring either but I think anything around 3mm at the twelve fret would be copacetic. I'm still 90% finger style and there are a couple chords up the neck I like to tease. If I can ever remember or recover my YouTube password I'll post some audio. At this point, the Delphi needs a bit more help than just lowered action but thats where my mind was last night. (crunked). Im planning on opening it up Sunday. Regards, Jeff |
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Post by slide496 on Sept 30, 2017 11:44:14 GMT
Another thing you might want to take into account is the string weight you think you want - the delphi might need, as I think you suspect, adjustment in several areas if you want it for fingerstyle to meet your goal - but if you take it apart and get as far as you can then IMHO you'll have a better idea as to how to instruct anyone you have to hire to work on it. The one thing I don't understand is the shorter tail if that is possible - they make shorter ones but those are for small machines like my 3/4 size republic. And I don't know per se if its necessary to have a big break angle - let the delphi tell you what it needs. TT seems to have a feel for the art of set up and his thinking on the subject makes a lot sense to me.
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 30, 2017 13:04:49 GMT
Hi Jeff
I don't think you need to understring, so my first step would be to try it properly strung. But to do this you need to put the tailpiece back to its original shape. It looks like it has been bent up at the front to accommodate the under stringing. You should bend the front edge down so it rests on the coverplate. Then try stringing it.
Regarding your question about adjusting the break angle by adjusting the tailpiece, is possible. The various brands of tailpieces are all slightly different on that front edge. I think the lowest is made by Saga in the Far East.
You have mentioned a damaged bridge saddle, maybe a damaged cone too.
I think you are missing out here. You have bought a beautiful National Reso-Phonic guitar, but it needs some TLC from an expert resonator luthier. My advice is to find a way to fund a proper job by a reputable National repairer/luthier, for example... Marc Shoenberger or Rik Besser. There may well be an expert resonator luthier in New Orleans, but I can't recommend one. I know that it is not a cheap thing to do, but in this case I believe it would be worthwhile, because you appear to be unsure about what to do.
I am not trying to make you spend money that doesn't need spending. As long as the work is done by a real expert, you will not regret it. You have got a beautiful guitar there which is not performing as it is supposed to do.
Best wishes
Shine On
Michael
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Post by creolian on Sept 30, 2017 13:48:38 GMT
Hi Jeff I don't think you need to understring, so my first step would be to try it properly strung. But to do this you need to put the tailpiece back to its original shape. It looks like it has been bent up at the front to accommodate the under stringing. You should bend the front edge down so it rests on the coverplate. Then try stringing it. Regarding your question about adjusting the break angle by adjusting the tailpiece, is possible. The various brands of tailpieces are all slightly different on that front edge. I think the lowest is made by Saga in the Far East. You have mentioned a damaged bridge saddle, maybe a damaged cone too. I think you are missing out here. You have bought a beautiful National Reso-Phonic guitar, but it needs some TLC from an expert resonator luthier. My advice is to find a way to fund a proper job by a reputable National repairer/luthier, for example... Marc Shoenberger or Rik Besser. There may well be an expert resonator luthier in New Orleans, but I can't recommend one. I know that it is not a cheap thing to do, but in this case I believe it would be worthwhile, because you appear to be unsure about what to do. I am not trying to make you spend money that doesn't need spending. As long as the work is done by a real expert, you will not regret it. You have got a beautiful guitar there which is not performing as it is supposed to do. Best wishes Shine On Michael Thank you Michael , all, Yours is the conclusion I was trying to avoid... It will take some saving and some time but I agree that I need to bite the bullet and get it done right by someone who knows what they're doing. Id never heard of saga but that site is now bookmarked for future ref. www.sagamusic.com/products/show-parts-accessories.aspx?family=9&body_typeid=tailpiecesAll best, Jeff |
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 30, 2017 14:11:02 GMT
Hi Jeff I know that my conclusion was the one you were trying to avoid, but I really do believe it is the correct procedure. By the way... nice photo of RPW  Shine On Michael |
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Post by creolian on Oct 1, 2017 16:53:13 GMT
Hello all, Got the Delphi apart and to my surprise the saddle looks ok, if not cut down too far. Cone has a bit of dent and the saddle was leaning towards the rear which i assume was due to the string angle. The bisquit was loose and the glue as pictured hardened. This certainly seems like a reason for some buzz. I thought Id read that this was a no glue needed issue ? Does anyone know if thats factory or P.O. ? If nothing else, I cleaned a lot of dust out of it and the cone had some dried liquid sticking it to the well... first time Ive ever put a guitar part in the bath. Yes, Ill be saving until I can afford a good setup etc. Thanks to this forum, I was able to pull the tailpiece, Leave the strings wrapped on the tuners and will be able to put her back together and play. Ive had and played a few guitars in much worse shape... I want to keep this one and will invest in getting it right for me. All Best, Jeff    |
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Post by resolive on Oct 12, 2017 23:11:21 GMT
If I may ask (because I think I was in the same boat for a while), what is your goal exactly? Lower the action to be able to (more) comfortably play fingerstyle? I was trying to do that for a while and considering doing a neck reset until I talked to a guitar tech and he basically said it would be tough to lower it any further. In the end I went for a lighter string gauge and it ended up being enough - with a little bit of practice. It looks like now you've got more stuff to do in the future but (and I know this sounds obvious, sorry...) what gauge of strings are you using?
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