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Post by snakehips on Jun 28, 2016 10:37:38 GMT
Hi there !
Following on from a discussion/thread about a vintage National Style "O" for sale in Edinburgh, Scotland, UK, it got me to thinking about how far travelled vintage Nationals have become, setting up home (from their origins in Los Angeles, California, and later, Chicago, Illinois), to all around the world.
How about people saying where about they are, in the world, with their vintage National(s) - so we see how far widespread these old guitars have reached.
Would be nice to know how many of them left the USA - I'm sure there must be lots !!
Perhaps some Americans might be upset to find that their heritage has been diluted out from their native country, to collectors/players, around the world.
It does remind me of the story - and I think it may come from one of our fellow MM members, (Houndog, also from Scotland) about one time he tried to buy a guitar from a US seller, on ebay.
The seller only had shipping options for within the USA. Houndog (if it was him) asked if he would be willing to let him bid on the guitar, as he was from outside the USA.
The message he got from the seller went basically like this : "No. I don't want my guitar getting in the hands of terrorists" !!!
Houndog - if you see this, please tell us the correct story, if I have that wrong.
Anyway, where in the world are you, with your vintage National(s) ?
(I'll start off - it's not supposed to be an inventory as such)
I'm in Edinburgh Scotland, and have quite a few.
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Jun 28, 2016 12:06:11 GMT
OK - I'm game.
Essex, England.
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Post by pete1951 on Jun 28, 2016 18:45:27 GMT
I (and most forum members) know that Mark Makin has been working on a list of National/Dobro serial numbers for many years, he may well have a list of the places the guitars were when collected. Some will be several years out of date, and giving the exact position of collections of valuable resos. would not be a good idea. He might be able to put something together?
PT
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 30, 2016 9:07:36 GMT
Hi Richard and Pete
Yes, you're right Pete. Bob Brozman and I started to put this list together in 1990. Just to give you a bit of the original story. Bob never had any intention originally of investigating the serial numbers when he started to consider writing his book. When he visited us in the UK for the first time in the late 80s, he stayed with me and I showed him a list of 250 numbers that I had collected. Among that list were seven Duolians all grouped around C9458. I guessed that these must have come to the UK in a group or batch because that close proximity would not be possible with random instruments travelling independently out of nearly 10000 possible numbers. We surmised that these therefore must have been supplied from Boosey and Hawkes in London around 1937.
This fact alone made Bob realise what we could find out by recording all these details and it still holds true today. We have no data from the remaining bits of the factories. No living person exists to corroborate any of this so we just keep "adding" to make the picture clearer.
We both felt adding the sources and geographical locations was also important. As you say Pete, in many instances over what is now close to 25 years, these instruments move about - probably helped greatly by ebay.
Like you guessed, the ACTUAL data list of the serial numbers has a column for "owners/location" at the far right side but for obvious reasons of delicacy, I omitted it in the book. It is not complete, but certainly close to 60/70 percent of the existing list. (That list incidentally has another 1500 added since the book came out three years ago).
I'm not sure what I can tell you Richard aboput what you will find from all this. Like you would imagine, they are found in all geographical locations. Rather like sales of my book, there are none that I know of in Russia, Africa, majority of South America, India, I can't say about China? Thousands in the USA, UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Japan. I imagine everything that is bought and sold over 80 years will eventually filter through to every nook and cranny.
The one original company shipping detail that I remember discovering was the relationship of the National company to the Sears Roebuck catalogue and the Dobro company to Montgomery Wards catalogue. This in turn led to different world destinations for overseas shipping. It is true to say that many more original 30s Dobros can be found in Australia than anywhere else outside the US (Many carry the original Australia Dealer labels on the cases. For Nationals, the UK was the prime destination outside the US and supposedly some did go to Africa - but like I say, I have no details of any of those.
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Post by snakehips on Jun 30, 2016 12:21:33 GMT
Hi again !
I was interested in what countries perhaps Nationals haven't yet reached but even more so I was interested (and amused) that you can find clusters of them in the same towns - often from people who don't know the others in the nearby location.
I'm sure that 1937 Style 3 Tricone I got must have been included in the batch for Boosey and Hawkes ? (although there is no way of knowing if it came in a shipment via them, or brought over as an individual instrument, by a musician, for instance.
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 30, 2016 14:05:49 GMT
Hi Richard
You have reminded me of a story from many years ago.
When I was researching these things back in the early 80s, I used to write letters (like you used to in the olden days!) to anybody across the globe that I thought could send me any information. One guy that I wrote to and received many letters from was John Gima in Chicago. John Gima was responsible for the reprints of various old National catalogues that you see around the place.
He was probably 15 to 20 years older than me and was a dealer and trader in old guitars, catalogues etc..
I remember in one letter, he told me that he didn't know much about the UK and Nottingham in particular. He asked me if I had heard of Edginton Street as he had a friend there in the 1940s who owned two National Duolians.... I can see Edginton Street from my window!
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Post by Mark Makin on Jun 30, 2016 14:31:33 GMT
i think your Style 3 is more likely to have found its own way here. I don't think Boosey and Hawkes stocked "high end" instruments. Their main magazine advert (page 20 in the book) records, Trojans and Duolians at £7.17.6d, El Trovadors at £15 and Style 1 Triplates (square and round) at £26.5.0d
(Don't all rush!! you're too late)
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Post by blinddrunk on Aug 5, 2016 11:45:26 GMT
I'm from Bedford UK. I've got a '32 Tricone Style 2 round neck (Serial No. S2949). I acquired it about 5 years ago and, prior to that, it had been lying in someone's shed since the early '60s.
It was in a sorry state: resonators, T bridge, tuners and neck binding missing and it was covered in a thick green tarnish. Last year, I sent it off to Dave King who worked his magic on it. I've hardly put it down since. I love it!
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Post by snakehips on Aug 5, 2016 15:03:00 GMT
Hi there !
Pics please, of the Tricone.
I'd love to see what Dave managed with the tarnished body - or did he leave it as it was ?
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Post by blinddrunk on Aug 5, 2016 21:07:55 GMT
Dave cleaned the front reasonably, but only partially cleaned the back and sides. To my eye, he's achieved the right balance. I'd like other member's opinions on what to do with those deep scratches on the back of the (maple?) neck. |
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Post by snakehips on Aug 5, 2016 21:59:09 GMT
Hi there !
I was interested to see what a luthier, who I tegard highly would/could do with a highly tarnished vintage plated National.
Without seeing the "before" pictures, I think that Dave has done a great job. Try to remove any more tarnish and you will most likely remove the plating, in an abrasive, manner, leaving the surface worse off.
The only thing to take it to another level is reverse-plate ALL the original plating off, gently polish, then replate.
However, there is no guarantee the engraving will not be obliterated - by the polishing (before replating) and/or plating. You would end up with new looking body - but still with a heavily worn neck - and that would look a bit silly.
I know who could do an expert job on the reverse-plating, polishing and replating BUT for this guitar I think you should keep it as it is. Also, you will unlikely improve the value of the guitar - in fact, you may devalue the guitar.
I think what Dave King has done is the perfect amount of restoration to bring life back to a beautiful guitar.
Now, you should play it like you probably always told yourself you would do, if you ever got a vintage roundneck Tricone !!!!
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Post by blinddrunk on Aug 5, 2016 23:06:52 GMT
Cheers for your input. Stupidly, I didn't take any "before" pictures, but I can assure you it looked pretty grim. I agree with you wholeheartedly that no more is needed. I'm more than happy with it as it is - delighted, in fact. If a pristine, shiny guitar was what I was after, I'd have bought a new one.
As for the monetary value, that's not particularly my priority - I'm never going to sell it. I just feel that as an 80+ year old instrument it is worthy of the utmost respect. My primary intention was for it to sing again, and it's certainly doing that - it's exceeded my expectations in every respect... and the sustain! I swear it can rival a Gibson Les Paul!
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