Half Round Reso stings anyone?

[gaucho]

I was having a discussion with a well know reso expert about why some vintage Nationals have that vintage "twang" and some don't. He suggested I try half round strings. I was skeptical but ordered a set of D'Addario Resophonic Flat Tops (EFT13) to try. Has anyone used these strings (any brand)? It would seem logical that you'd need some special technique to install them so the flat surface faced up. I searched the packaging and the web but couldn't find and special instructions. Also, I'm not sure if the all the strings are ground into the half-round configuration, or just the wound strings. The "vintage twang" I was talking about is mostly on the top 2 (unwound) strings, so if it's just the wound strings that are flattened I don't see how it could help. I went ahead and installed a set on on of my vintage resos, in the regular installation manner and I'll reserve some judgement on the tone until they are played in a bit (I typically don't like the tone of new strings for slide work). They are definitely quieter on slide and finger noise, but so far didn't do much for the "twang". Anyone else tried them?

[slide496]

According to D'addario their "D'Addario Flat Tops are round wound, then precision ground, leaving the outer surface smooth and "semi-flat." So they seem to be semi-flat all the way around, and since they are round wound, I guess that means that only the wound ones are semi-flat. Good luck with them - I haven't tried them. Interesting though as this is the first I've heard of them.

[petej]

I was wondering about that too,you mean like on Rory Gallaghers Triolian, i have feeling its more to do with the guitar,and also playing technique rather than the strings maybe wrong though but i would like to know also

Petej

[Stevie]

I have used them on my mandolin for years. They are still bright, but they impart a sort of lush tone. This suits the mandolin very well and I'm tempted to try them on my Heritage Sweet16 which is a little like an ES175 single pup. I couldn't get on with the more obvious choice of the Newtone double wound jazzers on that box and was surprised when ordinary coated D"Addarios worked so well. So, I'm wondering whether the "Flat Tops" would really be such a great choice for a reso? Hmmm. Do report back if you try them, but Newtone's strings seem to reign supreme on my single cone.

e&oe...

[Michael Messer]

My response to this discussion about half wound strings is, name me one of the GREAT National guitar players, present or past, that uses/used them.

That 'twang' is coming from old National guitars that are not setup properly, probably have a cone that has seen better days, and are strung with light gauge strings. Rory Gallagher, Bonnie Raitt, Taj Mahal, all have the 'twang'.

I know this because I too had Nationals that twanged, if that is the word for it. I bought a Style 0 from George Gruhn once. It really twanged like Rory's guitar. It was understrung, it had a split cone and a bridge saddle that was almost flat to the top of the biscuit. It sounded just like Rory's guitar.

The problem with all of us is that we know too much and our guitars are setup to optimise their performance by people that know what they are doing. I guarantee that Rory's, Bonnie's or Taj's National, were bought, strung up and played. I had guitars that had that illusive 'twang', but then I learnt about how a National should really sound and ruined them all! I don't think people realise how little knowledge everyone had about Nationals.

Strings are a personal choice thing, but I promise you that you won't get the twang from a set of strings. Try fitting an old knackered cone and a set of light gauge strings, oh and maybe understring it through the tailpiece. That should do it.

Shine On
Michael

[petej]

Well their you go i had a feeling it was something like that,but i dont think we should start putting old knackered cones in our guitars though,i was looking at an old film of Bukka white playing his old guitar it also had that twang,then i watched a film of Eric Bibb playing it,it sounded different to when bukka played it,i was wondering if it has had a neck reset or set up.

petej

[Deleted]

I agree with MMs point about Rory Gallaghers guitar. I don't know what strings he used on the triolian, but he used light strings on his electric. I think he used lighter strings on his 70s reso stuff, and heavier strings on his later / 90s reso stuff. There is a big difference in the tone on this tune to as the crow flies.

[gaucho]

This is a great discussion, I've been thinking about it a lot over the past year or so! I completely agree with what MM said, although I'm not sure he was completely serious. I may have detected a touch of sarcasm in there! Yes, the benchmark that I usually use when trying to describe the mythical "twang" is Rory's Triolian in Too Much Alcohol or Blind Boy Fuller or Robert Petway's Duolians. I know that at least some of the tone comes from the artist, but I have had Nationals pass thru my hands that I was able to get that tone out of. A couple examples: I bought a 1934 14 fret Style 0 that I stumbled upon. Wasn't looking to buy it, but once I played it and heard that it had that tone, I had to buy it (plus it was a smoking deal). It needed a neck reset and it had crusty old strings on it when I bought it. I debated long and hard before I changed the strings, but they were so gritty from corrosion that I eventually had to swap them out. Sure enough, that twang was greatly reduced by the new set. It also had more sustain, better dynamic range and a more even tone, but dang, I missed the twang! I tried dropping down to a 12 and a 15 on the unwound strings and that helped it come back a little. I also found a near perfect cosmetic condition '32 Duolian that had the twang on top but the bottom end was flat. New strings brought back the low end and balanced out the tone nicely, but it also took away a good bit of the twang. Once I had a proper neck reset and set up by a highly touted National luthier, they both changed. Most would say for the better as they are now perfectly playable up and down the neck and have a sweet, balanced tone. I've begun to consider that maybe this is really the way they are supposed to sound and that "twang" is more the result of a less than ideal neck angle and set up. I've tried a variety of things to get that tone, different strings, slides, tunings, cones etc. I even tried the trick where you sand down the inner side of a Hot Rod cone to make it thinner and get the weight down (long and tedious process!) to around what a vintage cone weighs. Nothing has really done the trick. I think the trick is just to find one that is in playable condition that already has the tone you like. I currently have a '31 Duolian that's beat. It's all original, but doesn't have any finish left on it. It has KILLER tone! The neck angle is bad and the neck is bowed and I'd really like to have it fixed so it could be fretted beyond the 5th fret. But I'm thoroughly convinced that having it made right will change the tone, and the tone is really the only thing it's got going for it!

[petej]

Hi Goucho i know what you mean i thought my Duolian sounded great till i was force not by choice in having a new fret board also a neck reset John Alderson did a great Job on it, i was worried incase i lost the sound, but when i got it back it was amazing far better than it was before.now its very sweet sounding
petej

[Michael Messer]

Hi Gaucho,

A touch of sarcasm in my wording, but I was actually being serious.

That sound did not exist until the 1960s, because in the the 20s and 30s the guitars were new. In the 60s when people starting getting interested in Nationals again, many had spent a few decades in attics and barns, and been mistreated. So when they started to come out into circulation again, what many musicians thought was a cool and funky sound, which it kind of was, was actually due to the guitars needing a setup.
It stayed that way until the late 80s and early 90s when a few things happened that made everyone look twice at their vintage Nationals. One was Bob Brozman whizzing around the world with a set of Nationals to die for, and spreading the word about how to setup Nationals properly. Another factor was that National Reso-Phonic Guitars (NRP) started to circulate around the world and the way they were built and setup, especially the neck angle and bridge saddle height, started to become what people expected of an old National.

Those 'twangy' old Nationals still turn up, but they get restored and turned into what a National is supposed to sound like. I am very pleased they got recorded and that we can hear that sound, because for all its faults, it has great character and that was what drew the musicians to them.

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

Interesting conversation here... No doubt that strings are an enormous factor in tone. Flats and semi-rounds add a distinct flavor. May have mentioned here previously that years ago I bought a '52 Gibson L7C from an original owner, with the original strings, and the guitar lost the magic when I changed them.

We need to also consider that when we hear the "new" Nationals on recording from the '30s that the recording process adds a major amount of coloration, compression, whatever to what we hear...as do even '60s and '70s recordings.

[slide496]

I don't know as today we even have the same metals with as the old strings - I've been tempted to buy old strings but I don't really think that they would be clean enough to handle or might break. I did have an early 30's fhole parlour with original strings and the weight was the same as a Martin light set. Unfortunately not that much was noted from the people did the field work about set up - unlike now.

[Deleted]

The subject of guitar strings would make an interesting research paper. I wonder if early guitar players changed strings except in case of breakage...and then would likely only change the broken one. What property of the string breaks down such that some artists change strings every day..? As far as the metals, there may have been some tampering with the original metals in the name of cost cutting and manufacturing process.

[slide496]

I've noticed, maybe others have as well, with the top 2 strings that different sets will use different alloys, like tin plated steel and silvered steel. I just changed my kay music note from 10, 14 to 11, 15 and the package had silvered steel. I think I'd probably look for silvered steel in replacing them as they seem to be working out weight and soundwise.

[kiwi]

I have 2 Harmony hollowbody electrics, an H74 and an Airline branded Meteor which I usually have flat wounds on. A few years back I tried a set of half rounds on one. Took them off after a week they just had none of the advantages of flats, and just didn't sound that great.