The difference between an MM/Busker and a National

[Dessery]

Hi all

This might be a silly question but I have always wondered. I used to own an MM blues 14 and these days have a Busker Deco, both absolutely amazing guitars, but there has always been a part of me that has longed for a national but I can't work out if that's because it just is a National, or is it that much better?

So what is the actual difference, is it the construction methods, the materials? I find it hard to believe it's anything design based as I know already at least that Michaels are very close to early national designs. I know it's not the cone because loads of people have swapped their Continental's for hot rod cones with little or no effect, good or bad. I have seen reference to improving an MM by upgrading to a national biscuit, but is that it? I know it's not the setup because the MM's are all done by Dave King.

So my real question is, what justifies an almost 4x price tag?

I realise there is 2 sides to this question really because modern NRP's are different again to true nationals. But again, what is the difference there, is it just age? Or is it the construction, or the materials?

Any thoughts greatly appreciated!!

Thanks
David

[Deleted]

Its because its a national - you gotsta have one at some point.
Bite the bullet, then sell it if the thrill goes.
TT

[Stevie]

Comparing The Chinese economy to Uncle Sam's means that you can get workers for a fraction of the cost compared to the USA. Also, the USA work has attention to details in areas that you don't normally see. Ever looked at the bird's nest inside a Russian Rigonda radio compared to (eg) a Sony? Hmmm.


e&oe

[Deleted]

The appearance and finish of the NRP guitars is much more polished. If you can find a shop that stocks NRP guitars, pay a visit and try them. I've had a couple of MM Blues, Busker Deco and NRP polychrome tricone. I didn't like the Deco, as every time I changed strings, bits fell off - like the nut, and part of a tuner. It sounded ok though. The MM guitars sounded great, and were well finished. The tricone was perfect, but it sounded too pure for me.

At the end of the day, it's down to the actual guitar and personal preference.

Have a look at the NRP resos here, at Dave King's (he sets up the MM guitars I believe - designed by Michael, set up by Dave - they've got a lot going for them!).

www.youtube.com/channel/UCtoeVP6gId68RJ38Ij7dltQ

[Deleted]

It's important to make a distinction between National, a company that existed many decades ago, and National Resophonic, a company that bought the license to the National brand in 1989, and resurrected it as the National NRP line.

It's up to you whether having the word "National" on your headstock is important to you. It's not going to make the guitar sound any better, and it's not going to make you play any better. It might impress some of the people watching you -- but that would only be people who don't understand that a National NRP is no more a true National than the MM or Busker guitars. Much of the added price of a National NRP comes merely from having that brand name on the headstock.

It's also up to you to decide for yourself how important having a guitar built in the USA is to you. It is true that, 40 years ago, buying a guitar built in Asia was a frightening proposition. But with the advent of CNC technology, much of the voodoo has been taken out of guitar building. You can take the stance of "Buy American" (which would be silly if you're not American), but then, why not insist on this for every other purchase you make? But when a guitar is built in the US (or anywhere outside of Asia), you've automatically doubled the price, if not more. Those Mexican workers National hires don't come cheap.

Another piece of the puzzle is quality control. You're just not going to get the same kind of quality control from a factory that produces hundreds of guitars per day, even if for certain batches (like the MM guitars) they adhere to far stricter specifications than they do for others, than you will in a factory like National NRP, which produces only 1,000 guitars per year. That alone means they need to price their guitars higher, just to pay rent. It also means that their brand and their survival depends on maintaining very strict quality control. The moment people start to complain about the quality of a National NRP guitar, they're done for.

The Asian factories tend to produce many different "brands" -- it's all about what the client asks for on the spec sheet. I believe some of the larger international brands have their own factories, but these also produce the various sub-brands in their brand families (Fender = Squire; Gibson = Epiphone, etc.). And some of these factories also produce for third-party brands. In any event, I imagine, when producing for a client consistently ordering large quantities of guitars, they'll pay more attention to quality control. And the higher the specifications (and price) of the order, the more care will be taken in the guitar's construction. But then it's all about the seller -- when he receives the guitars (which spend a couple of months in a container on a ship before reaching him), does he thoroughly inspect and set up every single guitar? Does he NOT sell on the duds (which I'm sure many sellers do -- particularly when they receive orders from international buyers, knowing that few people will bother trying to ship the guitar back)?

Personally, I simply can't justify spending large quantities of money on a single guitar. I'm not rich, I'm not a professional musician, I'm responsible for a family, etc. I admit to being as seduced by guitar brands as much as the next guy though, so I fully understand why, for you or someone else, if the guitar doesn't say "National" on the headstock, you'll never feel quite satisfied with the guitar.

Whew! Long post! My apologies!

[Michael Messer]

Hi Dessery,

There is no way that I can get the finish of my guitars as good as National. The metal bodies of mine are very good quality and the nickel plating is as good as anyone can do, but there are differences in the finish of the completed instrument. The time spent at NRP on finishing makes a lot of difference and that, apart from the difference between Chinese and US economy, is what you pay for. The beautiful finish does make the product feel more up-market, but does not create a better tone.

The cleverest thing that Don did when he set up the company in the late 1980s was not to do with the design or quality of his product (which is very good, there is no question about it), it was that he called the company 'National Reso-Phonic Guitars'. Over a ten year period the 'Reso-Phonic Guitars' bit of the name dropped off the end and the lines between NRP and the original National company (of which there is no connection whatsoever) became more and more blurred. With an iconic brand name so closely associated with their product, they couldn't go wrong. If he had called it 'Don's Guitars' he would not have achieved the success that he did. Can you just imagine what I could achieve if my company was called 'Dobro'. That is why dealers try to revive old dead brand names like Supro, Valco ...etc.

Having my guitars setup at Dave King Acoustics is the icing on the cake. Every one of my guitars gets whatever it needs to be as good as we can make them. I do not get special deals or make them work fast; every MM guitar costs me between 1 and 3 hours labour to be setup, and at £35 per hour it is not difficult to see what I am spending on this part of the production. Most other companies that I have spoken to that sell guitars in my price range allow 10 to 20 minutes per guitar for setup.

(I hope this doesn't read like an advert. It is not meant to, but if it does I'll move the thread into Main Street?)

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

I had not seen Mickey's post, we wrote at the same time.

Mickey, the factory that produce my guitars do not manufacture thousands per day. There is a small network of workshops that employ no more than a handful of people that do all the work by hand. You are right that many guitar factories in China are enormous and churn out tens of thousands per day, but that is not where my guitars are produced. The factory I visit is a little house in a village outside Shanghai that employs six people. There is no mass production and it is very hands-on. For example... if I want to improve the finish of the necks, I talk to the guy that hand-finishes the necks.

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

....I would like to add a note to this thread; I understand the reason that you put MM & Busker together, however, MM and Busker guitars are no longer produced in the same factory, so to have a thread title of MM/Busker compared to NRP, is not really correct.

The metal bodies come from the same body factory, the cones are Continental brand, but the necks and assembly are not done in the same place.

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2015 9:24:52 GMT Michael Messer said:

I had not seen Mickey's post, we wrote at the same time.

Mickey, the factory that produce my guitars do not manufacture thousands per day. There is a small network of workshops that employ no more than a handful of people that do all the work by hand. You are right that many guitar factories in China are enormous and churn out tens of thousands per day, but that is not where my guitars are produced. The factory I visit is a little house in a village outside Shanghai that employs six people. There is no mass production and it is very hands-on. For example... if I want to improve the finish of the necks, I talk to the guy that hand-finishes the necks.

Shine On
Michael

Yes, I think I knew this but overlooked it when I was writing -- an important clarification! (Although I wasn't specifically referring to the MM line, just the more typical rebadged guitars out there, which often cost as much as MM guitars for a far lower value).

And as for your post, I don't view that as an advert -- I think it's important people know what the guitar market (or any market) is made of, and what it takes to make a quality guitar. It allows them to make an informed purchase.

[Dessery]

Hi all

Thank you so much for your responses, it's been a really interesting read.

michael, my apologies on the MM/Busker thing. In my experience they are both excellent examples of Asian built guitars with a strict quality control and setup process and in my opinion in a completely different league to the rest of the competition.

Many thanks again
David

[Michael Messer]

David, no need to apologise. Your comment highlighted something that needed clearing as many people assume that all the Shanghai-built resonators come from the same manufacturers.

Best wishes

Shine On
Michael

[ripped]

I think comparing instruments by brand is not very informative as you get good and bad in all brands. It works when you compare 2 very similar instruments side by side. For example, I have a 12 string Hot Rod Steel Tricone and for around £1000 it is not bad value for money. However, I also have a 12 string National (NRP)for a lot more money and there is no comparison between the two. The quality of the National is far superior and the tone is in another league. The Hot Rod sounds OK on its own but next to the National it sounds dead.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Ripped,

I have not yet seen a far eastern built Tricone that performs like a National Reso-Phonic, or like a National Tricone.

Shine On
Michael

[resotonic]

I've had 7 or 8 National Reso-Phonics (NRP) over the last six years and I keep trading/selling them. For some reason, they are just too much guitar for me. They are so perfect, I feel like I'm going to devalue them a lot by just one little scratch! Plus I just can't get the Tone in my head out of an NRP...
Enter the MM Blues - and there it is! - the Tone plus the fact that it's a less expensive guitar that I have no problem scuffing up or playing hard. I use a metal slide and I have chipped out the body paint when hitting up past the 12th fret, but no big deal; added character. I found that the MM was not perfect and invited a couple of personal tweaks; for example the fret board was slightly wider in places where it glued on to the neck, so out came the file and steel wool to smooth it out so there was no longer a raised seam. Polished up the neck nicely. Also removed the truss rod cover and polished up the headstock face to show off more of the grain. The neck shows a great grain after polishing up with steel wool. I have managed to play my MM Blues every day since I got it - it has such a classic vibe and has cured my search for "that National" (unless a '30's Triolian comes along with my name on it!!)

[Deleted]

They are so perfect ........

Resotonic

That's why I sold mine! I'd wanted one for years, but it was just too perfect. I sold my MM Blues because of health problems, but I'm feeling better now ...... oh dear, it's going to all start again!