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Post by jono1uk on Jun 30, 2015 18:34:40 GMT
i am due soon to upgrade my MM Blues and have a National cone and bridge fitted..
i also have a cheap wooden countryman that i have owned for about 5 years so...
my question is... would the original cone and bridge from the MM fit the countryman and would it sound better?
Jon
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 30, 2015 19:40:42 GMT
Hi Jono,
I don't know what a Countryman is, but I am sure the cone is better. But....it takes more than a cone to make a guitar sing.
I do not recommended fitting National cones to MM guitars, as I don't think it makes enough difference to warrant spending the money. What does make a difference, is a National biscuit/bridge and a really good professional setup by a National expert (a BIG difference if it is done properly).
Not trying to be negative, just trying to help.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by jono1uk on Jun 30, 2015 19:59:59 GMT
Hi Michael
I will never consider you words on resos to be Negative ..you knowledge on them is world renowned..
i take it the Biscuit Bridge is the part that goes in the centre of the cone?
if it is ( and please confirm) i have one of those coming ...i also have a cone coming as well because when i origionaly ordered the parts i thought the cone
was the "Biscuit" bit and the bridge was the "thing" in the middle...so as i am having the "thing" in the middle replaced and a pro set up ...it it worth changing the cone seeing as I have now got one ? or --do they wear out and should i keep as a replacement? .
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Post by bryanbradfield on Jun 30, 2015 21:56:30 GMT
From an on-line discussion with Howard Parker, professional musician and periodic marketing assistant to Paul Beard of Beard Guitars, my recollection is that he (Howard) considers spider bridge type cones to be consumables, and therefore changes them periodically. Several players participated in that thread, and the consensus seemed to be that through repeated playing and flexing, there was an alteration, if not degradation, of the structure of the aluminum. I don't have enough cone swapping experience to comment.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 30, 2015 23:00:10 GMT
Hi Jono,
Thanks! Sometimes I feel like I am lecturing and appearing to be negative, which I am not. I am always just trying to be helpful and share the pool of knowledge that we have on this forum.
The biscuit/bridge is the whole wooden disc and bridge 'thing' that sits on the cone under the handrest.
Now that you have ordered a cone, you might as well fit it. It will be different, but how much different and whether 'different' is an improvement, is the point I was making.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 30, 2015 23:10:48 GMT
Hi Bryan,
You are correct that many modern Dobro players change their cones up to three times a year! Jerry Douglas is renowned for doing this in recent years. Many modern Dobro players want a bright 'new cone' sound, and as soon as it gets dirty and has had a few months use, they replace it.
I am sure Jerry and other top players know what they're doing, but to me and my taste for sweet sounding country Dobro, it goes against everything I know and believe in. To me it is just weird and wasteful. if they don't want their three month old Beard cones, I'll have 'em!
National players, single cone and tricone, would I hope NEVER dream of doing such a thing! Surely the older the cone on a National or a Dobro, the better it sounds and the better it responds. My favourite cones are from the 1920s. I have even had a set of 1928 tricones re-spun and they sound beautiful. They sing, they're loud and they are sweet.
Recently I played an all original 1928 Dobro and it was EVERYTHING a Dobro could be. Changing that cone would be sacrilege!
Shine On
Michael
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Post by mitchfit on Jul 1, 2015 0:36:02 GMT
..."To me it is just weird and wasteful."...
some idiosyncrasies defy explanation.
remember reading that Jerry Garcia had his magnetic PUPs changed
every one or two years believing the loss of magnetism caused a
very profound degradation of tonal qualities in that period of
time.
(?)
got some olde axes that i'd commit violence on the person who
thought to change out the PUPs....
to each their own,
mitchfit
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Post by jono1uk on Jul 1, 2015 4:55:20 GMT
Thanks Michael ...
Damn ...wish i hadn't bought the cone... i would of A .saved money and B not had the dilemma as to weather to fit it!
i know it may be difficult to describe without soundbites but how different will it sound?
will there be more bass or treble? will it be louder?
as its not a quick job swapping it out i would love to know..
Jon
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Post by jono1uk on Jul 1, 2015 10:20:35 GMT
Hi Michael
Are you able to over any advice as to the sound differences please
Jon
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 12:03:39 GMT
Just a question... the Countryman guitars I'm seeing look like they're Dobro-style, if that's the case, then it also means it has a spider bridge. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that also means the cover plate will NOT work with a biscuit bridge. My guess is the "Countryman" is just a rebadged Chinese import that looks like a resonator but isn't -- my brother-in-law's first guitar was one of these, and it literally collapsed on him while playing. No point in upgrading them, in my opinion.
I don't think you can ask Michael to comment on the sound quality and sound difference, since he doesn't know this guitar. Asking him to discuss other brands of guitar also leads him into a bit of a conflict of interest, since he has his own guitar line.
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Post by jono1uk on Jul 1, 2015 12:13:55 GMT
Hi Mickey ..u misunderstood the question ..i am asking how different a MM Blues will sound with a national cone compared with a standard one?
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 1, 2015 12:37:06 GMT
Hi Jon,
I understand your question.
Firstly, a very good piece of advice that should be adhered to as much as possible, is that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". If the guitar sounds great and you are happy with the feel of it, why bother to change anything.
Secondly, every change and adjustments of components make a difference, but how much difference and what that difference will be, is sometimes very hard to know without trying it.
National Reso-Phonic (NRP) cones (made in the USA), are reputed to be the best mass-produced cones in the world. They are hand-spun and the quality control at NRP is first class. Their Hot Rod range of cones are extremely good and you would not be making a mistake fitting one into your MM guitar.
Continental cones (made in China), are the cones I use in my guitars. They are hand-spun using the correct material in the correct way with the correct tools. Their consistency is amazing. They are not quite as refined as an NRP cone, but they are beautifully hand-spun by what can only be described as an expert cone spinner. This is a bit of a black art that very few people in the world can do properly. And I mean 'very few'....literally an handful of people in the world that can spin a good National-style cone.
I have done 'A - B' tests in the same guitar with a Continental and an NRP cone, and while there are differences, I would not say one is better than the other. Having said that, all this stuff is subjective, and you might fit an NRP into your MM guitar and say...."Wow that's great, I don't know what MM was talking about!". Fitting a new cone and a new biscuit/bridge and re-setting up the guitar changes so many things that it will not be possible to be sure whether it was the new cone or the setup that improved your guitar.
My advice, since you already have an NRP cone, is to have it fitted and see what you think. I would not fit the Continental into your Countryman until you are sure you like the NRP.
Phew....I hope that is helpful and that I have jabbered on too much....
Shine On
Michael
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Post by jono1uk on Jul 1, 2015 12:48:36 GMT
Michael
Thankyou for your perfect explanation ..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 12:48:39 GMT
Hi Mickey ..u misunderstood the question ..i am asking how different a MM Blues will sound with a national cone compared with a standard one? Ah. I thought you were asking if you could put the MM cone into the Countryman, sorry. |
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Post by bryanbradfield on Jul 1, 2015 14:36:49 GMT
Michael's advice to not fix what isn't broken should be read adhered to. His explanation was so well written that I feel I'm just saying it in different words. However, I wanted to restate it using my experiences as a guideline. Play your instrument over a period of time. Ensure that it is properly set up for optimum sound. Ensure that it is properly set up for comfort and playability. If at that point you are dissatisfied with the existing sound, know the volume and tone characteristics of the cone you are considering as a replacement. You won't necessarily end up with that exact sound, but the characteristic volume and tone will give you a benchmark. Cone swapping is not a panacea. Cone swapping gives you a different sound, and from there the satisfaction level is entirely subjective. I strongly dislike product reviews. I maintain that a buyer of expensive parts will never admit to having made a mistake.
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