12 string action/height modification questions?

[slide496]

I just got a concert sized 12 string - a fender Tim Armstrong- which I changed the strings from 10-52 to 13-56 so I could turn down to C.

It can play it ok but since slots weren't made for the heavy strings - they are uneven with the lighter ones and I wanted to improve on that. The guitar neck has a curved radius.

If forum members are playing on a 12 flat top can you tell me if:

Are the strings on yours level at top across the neck or if there is slight variation.

Are they of even height at the saddle? Would you modify the saddle if they weren't?


Thanks,
Harriet

[SoloBill]

Hi Harriet,

I have a Fender CD160SE; the strings are not level, the lower note wound strings (larger gauge) all sit proud of their octave pair. If there is a set pattern, it's not obvious! That is, the string heights at the nut and saddle are not even, either at the bottom of the strings or the top of the strings (the nut slots are not all the same depth, although they are close), the saddle heights, especially of the 6th strings (low e) are quite different. Nor are the centre lines of the strings all at the same height.

I haven't tried playing slide on it and I'm just trying to get used to it as it is. Since it sounds great, I don't intend to change it.

Bill

[slide496]

Wow thanks so much SoloBill, I feel much relieved from your post - that sounds similar. The panic is off!!!

For slide, unamplified and amplified, I am finding that both a longer double-cut bottle glass with slight cone shape about 63.5 mm and the Dunlop 231 which is tapered and radiused for slide on a radiused fretboard, recommended a while back by forum member Fredcapo, work well across the radius. I also use the short bronze I got from Jan which gives great tone and loudness.

One thing I found with the Fender strings with slide was there was very poor tone on the 9th fret high E in open g, and the one with a paired .09 was peculiar sounding in case its similar issue. Changing to a heavier set changed that for me.

Lawd lawdy,
Harriet

[slide496]

I live near a music store and just checked the Taylors, Epiphone, Martin, Fender all are factory set up with the 4 octave sets different heights in the pairs, same with the saddle - they lay a pair across an even plane so the thicker is higher. Martin had the least difference.

Maybe if anyone has modified theirs to even for slide they could post?

Thanks,
Harriet

[pete1951]

I guess if you are just using the 12s. for slide, then having your treble stings a little high would be fine. there will be a slight tuning/intonation problem with plain strings. As you fret on the 1st fret your plain treble string will sharpen a little more than its wound partner (You may have noticed this problem on a guitar with a high nut, the plain strings go sharp but the wound ones are not too bad) so it will not sound so sweet.
PT
I have a reso 12 and have similar problems, keeping all 12 strings in tune at the same time is more of a battle so maybe I should do the modification ...... its always going to be a bit out of tune!

[slide496]

Thanks for the input Pete1951. Just starting to sink in that pairs need to achieve the same intonation down the fretboard, so if it works don't fix it unless something goes wrong even if it looks peculiar with the pairs being at different heights.

[Deleted]

...the rule of thumb when slotting a nut is for half the diameter of the string to sit proud of the nut... While saddle slotting "rule" not so clear...so, a string level-top objective appears not be a luthier prime consideration... But interesting observation,and something to think about...

[Michael Messer]

Hi Harriet,

The strings on my 12 string are setup in this way....

This setup is perfect for slide and regular fretting. The fretboard on my guitar is very wide (56mm at the nut, 66mm at the 12th fret). This was not setup specially for me, it was done this way at the factory in 1939.









Shine On
Michael

[slide496]

Thanks very much for the fotos MM. Are those 12 -54s?

[Michael Messer]

My pleasure!

Yes, those are 12/54s

Shine On
Michael

[slide496]

Thanks MM. Thats a beautiful 12 string resonator with an interesting history perhaps to forum members so I hope as aside, its ok to post this video which includes a description of its acquisition and restoration by Mike Lewis, all original parts except for the tailpiece and hand rest, and comments on the felt as requisite to the tone.

[Deleted]

Thinking about Harriet's observation...the unevenness of the string "plane" on a 12 string guitar is likely a factor that contributes to the clatter that is one characteristic of the sound when playing with a slide, due to inconsistent contact...which is desirable or not depending upon the player...I guess...

[mikenewport]

Interesting thread

Thank you for the video Michael that guitar's lovely, Mike Lewis did a great job there.

If you imagine looking at the strings across the nut, but from the side, my two guitars have the thinner of the pair in the centre of the thicker string. So the thinner string becomes the same as the thicker string but without the outer wrap. This would reduce the amount of difference between the two strings when fretted, by one thickness of wrap wire. This difference is again one thickness of the wrap wire at the bridge, but doesn't have the height compensation of the nut. So the difference at the fret and the saddle is the the thickness of the wrap wire only.

The second point , which fredcapo mentions above, regarding inconsistent string contact. Yes this is present but I wonder how much effect this has, given that the strings are depressed slightly even by the lightest of player touch.

My inexpensive Yamaha doesnt even have a compensated bridge facet and sounds good to me. If it plays good and sounds good I would leave it as it is.

An idea for opening up the nut slots (if you haven't got files) is to use the off cuts from the new strings and use them like dental floss in the slots. It's not brilliant but might gain you some change. All the best and how about a video slide496

Mike

[slide496]

Hi mikenewport,

Mine is now very high action with the 13-56 so I am able to depress with slide to even height, and the way I play is alot of single line melodies and those strings are paired same weight.

I definitely will be leaving as is for now mainly because I don't know if I would be creating intonation issues down along the neck as Pete1951 described, or whether I would like the sound balance or playability. Fender does not carry replacements for the neck and saddle.

On the other hand a quick reversible test would be, if I wanted to tinker, to put a piece of card stock under the little string of the pair and raise it. Widening the slots might not be a great idea if I decide to go to 12-54.

I will try to to get sound samples of it together! - I'd be interested to hear how this projects as an acoustic and how it sounds recorded myself. Thank you for your interest .

Lawd lawdy,
Harriet

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2015 17:58:00 GMT slide496 said:

One thing I found with the Fender strings with slide was there was very poor tone on the 9th fret high E in open g, and the one with a paired .09 was peculiar sounding in case its similar issue. Changing to a heavier set changed that for me.

Lawd lawdy,
Harriet

This might have been caused by a wonky fret higher up the neck - putting the heavier strings on added a bit more relief, allowing the strings to clear the offending fret. So if you go back to a lighter string set, maybe ease off on the truss rod a bit too.