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Post by petej on Jan 20, 2015 14:17:01 GMT
Zak i think you are correct the thread is left handed,if you could just turn them round why did they not do that in the first place when they fitted them,i have a feeling standard tuners wont fit,i suppose you might be able to replace the gears if they are worn,on mine the tuning post is steel and the gears are brass so would not be difficult to replace,i have not seen any replacement ones for sale anywhere. petej
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Post by petej on Jan 20, 2015 14:24:03 GMT
here's a film giving tips on how to fit tuner buttons
petej
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Post by pete1951 on Jan 20, 2015 14:28:40 GMT
Good quality tuners used in `reverse gear` mode work fine (as the above) .But cheap ones, as they age ,and the posts get a bit loose, the `modern` way of fitting can be better as the post-gear is pushed into the worm. The string levers them tight together, so any `slack` is taken up. Worn reverse gear m/heads can slip as the worm and gear are `pulled` apart. PT Stewart-MacDonald do a `worm below`Golden Age 3-on-a-plate #2515-N
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Post by alexandre on Jan 20, 2015 17:13:59 GMT
Here are some pictures to support Zak's argumentation... I have found some vintage & clean "fleur de lis" tuners to replace some "safe ti-string" tuners which were install on my 29 triolian, and as you can see, the direction of the screw thread is in the opposite way, if you compare to the replica in the second photo. By the way, as Snakehips has stated it, the shafts are not nickeled or chromed on the original ones...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 21:59:35 GMT
OK then possibly they were designed for a square neck where tuners point upward.
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Post by snakehips on Jan 20, 2015 22:12:34 GMT
Hi again !
Squareneck Nationals came with the tuners pointing down/back, just like on a roundneck. It's a squareneck player aftermarket mod, as far as I am aware, to swap around the tuners, so that the buttons point upwards when playing lapstyle. Can't abide the look myself though.
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Post by zak71 on Jan 20, 2015 22:58:38 GMT
OK then possibly they were designed for a square neck where tuners point upward. No, they were not "designed for a square neck" - they were the industry standard until some point in the 20s. National used them longer than most manufacturers, possibly because they had purchased a huge batch and eren't about to switch until they had used them up. Every single guitar I've had from the 1900s or 1910s and most of the ones made prior to the late 1920s had reverse gear tuners. Turning them in ANY direction doesn't change the orientation of the threads.
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Post by petej on Jan 21, 2015 18:05:04 GMT
So will standard tuners fit,or are the holes for the barrels in a different position, i should imagine all the screw holes will be. petej
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Post by zak71 on Jan 21, 2015 18:19:52 GMT
They would fit, but the plates themselves would be much lower on the headstock, and new holes would be required (the old ones would be exposed). Looking at my two Triolians, the holes in the headstock of the wood bodied one w/ the reverse gear tuners are drilled much higher up the headstock to accommodate the tuners. You can see in this photo that the D and G string tuner shafts are right at the top of the headstock slots: Attachments:
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Post by Keith Ambridge on Jan 21, 2015 19:28:45 GMT
I just had a quick look on the stew mac site, and although I can't find it in writing I'm sure I remember that they stocked reverse gear machines. If you look at the pictures, it looks like they do!
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Post by petej on Jan 21, 2015 21:15:35 GMT
yes is saw that Keith,but no info petej
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Post by waffle on Jan 21, 2015 22:05:55 GMT
I agree with Zak, Tried it myself, although it works,you do end up with visible screw holes on the side of the headstock where you swapped them round and the plates in a lower position .I think this has been done on the guitar in question at some point,then changed back again,You would think this is Such a simple step to swap machine heads round and expect the same..our eyes deceive us,the more you look etc..
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Post by petej on Jan 22, 2015 10:20:29 GMT
i contacted Stewmac out of curiosity they were very helpful they said the Golden age 2515-n tuners would fit might have to make some new holes and if i needed any advice just contact them.nice to know in case i ever need any for my Duolian. petej
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 22:54:43 GMT
As a coda to my original post I fitted a set of Stewmac bell end (sic) relic nickel tuners which look the part and work great. Only needed to make one new hole per side (well there was eight per side to choose from) and the old tart looks like she's been to the hairdresser. I class this guitar as a 'rescue' El Trovador--unloved and unappreciated in the past but now in a loving home.
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