|
Post by tigercubt20 on Feb 1, 2015 21:58:45 GMT
I cant add too much to this, except that pure aluminium is too soft and ductile for a structural device, good conductor of electricity, and makes good low temp gaskets.
so reso cones are an aluminium alloy, as are pretty much everything using aluminium as a base. steel doesn't have a memory, unless taken to yield point, Youngs Modulus.
aluminium does have a memory, if designed for 50 cycles. 25 cycles followed by a five year gap, followed by 25 cycles equals failure. so in theory old cones, have gained wisdom.
but I have no idea of the cycle time to failure of a reso cone. infinity maybe. hope I fail before my cones.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 23:16:35 GMT
Most of you, above, have hit on the answer, and it is not that something is vintage, or comprised of aged components... It is that what are recognized as the better instruments, ie National, Gibson, RickenbacHer, Martin,, were all carefully designed, engineered and constructed with much research, material selection and testing so they simply have good tone and playability. So many instruments produced today vary from the original deigns in materials and construction, most often yielding a lesser instrument. And the same thing goes for all other types of products. I was an engineer for Bell labs for many years and saw the high level of engineering that went in telephones and systems that lasted 50 years or more. I dont think there is much more to it than that...
|
|
|
Post by tigercubt20 on Feb 2, 2015 17:28:46 GMT
more useless information, Bauxite the ore from which aluminium is produced by a torturous process requiring electricity is one of the commoner elements on our planet.
so resonator guitars are a product of the electric age. aluminium alloys work harden over time, so with usage they would become slightly stiffer, this would in theory affect certain sound frequencies
likely the higher, frequencies. music being a complex mix of harmonic frequencies around the fundamental. but you cant make music with mathematical theories, only us humans can do this, as proven by the rubbish produced by computer programs.
the idea that old cones are made from some exotic metal unknown in our Cosmos, and smuggled out of AREA 51, are bonkers. old cones are made from a commercially available aluminium wrought alloy being produced at the time. a small guitar company employing metallurgists and commissioning half a tonne of experimental alloy, several times to find just the right alloy, doesn't make sense.
all commercially available alloys, of whatever metal are no secret. and if there were such a thing, spectroscopic analysis would fix that.
so new cones, are likely to be just as good as old ones, given time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 21:01:03 GMT
the idea that old cones are made from some exotic metal unknown in our Cosmos, and smuggled out of AREA 51, are bonkers. old cones are made from a commercially available aluminium wrought alloy being produced at the time. a small guitar company employing metallurgists and commissioning half a tonne of experimental alloy, several times to find just the right alloy, doesn't make sense. all commercially available alloys, of whatever metal are no secret. and if there were such a thing, spectroscopic analysis would fix that. so new cones, are likely to be just as good as old ones, given time. Something not quite right with your logic? Some new cones are really not good, some are very good. And its not just the alloy. I assume that there were various types of commercial aluminium alloy available. My guess is that the dopyeras did what should happen now but rarely does - they did their own trial and error research, and went with what was right, not what (e.g.) a committee or an accoutant told them to do. They made the rules. They were way better at it than most other luthiers, and they got the results we benefit from now. I don't think you should underestimate just how brilliant the dopyeras were with every aspect of guitar making.
|
|
|
Post by tigercubt20 on Feb 3, 2015 20:33:02 GMT
yes I see what you mean, but my" new cones, are likely to be just as good as old ones, given time ", is an assumption not logic, assuming same gauge sheet, same alloy, same forming process. they could still be subtly difference. on that I cant form an opinion.
the Dopyera brothers were definitely a pair of crazy genius's. although they improved rather than invented. John Matthias Augustus Stroh, an engineer in London, patented in 1899, metal resonator violin.
and again on 16 feb 1901, an improved cone shaped resonator, having corrugations around the edge to improve stiffness. he didn't patent it in the USA. which allowed John Dopyera and George Beauchamp to subsequently obtain USA patents for use in the tricone and later the single cone guitar.
all I am saying is that the Dopyera's tested what was available, and did NOT commission new alloys, as that would include a possibly infinite number of recipes, although a metallurgist should be able to weed out the more useless ones.
|
|
|
Post by zak71 on Feb 3, 2015 20:36:14 GMT
assuming same gauge sheet, same alloy, same forming process Someone who actually works in metallurgy told me that the aluminum smelters of the 1930s operated under very different temperatures than the ones used in contemporary manufacturing, which is why National Reso-Phonic has unsuccessfully struggled for so long to replicate the composition and (most importantly) the sound of the original national cones of the 1930s.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 21:15:18 GMT
...assuming same gauge sheet, same alloy, same forming process. OK As for this 'ageing', is it happening on a linear progression? - if so, they should continue to 'age' well. or logarhythmic / exponential type curve? - if so, they might not 'age' any more. Is it more like an engine 'running in' then wearing out - if so, they might actually start sounding worse. See you in 50 years x TT
|
|
|
Post by tigercubt20 on Feb 3, 2015 21:26:49 GMT
interesting conjecture. normally temperatures in metal smelting, casting, forging, rolling, all different processes. are described using equilibrium diagrams, sort of graphs.
the original refining using vast ammounts of electricity, produces blocks of aluminium weighing a tonne or more. these then go to other manufacturers of aluminium raw sheet, castings, forgings, extrusions,etc. you could carry out sand casting of spider bridges in your garden shed, aluminium has a low melting point, any lower and it wont flow or be homogenous, any higher and it absorbs gases.
you cant make sheet wrought aluminium in your shed, for that you would need a rolling mill. my opinion is that the remelt temps would be consistent around a small range. where things could be inconsistent is in the rolling process, rolling hot metal back and forth, not quenching too much, and requiring highly skilled operators before the advent of computers could make a difference, albeit an inconsistent one. this has nothing to do with the alloy used, different alloy for sand casting, different for die casting, different for wrought sheet, different for extrusions.
you know what! this doesn't mean a hill of beans, if my ears tell me one thing, and mathematics tells me another, I trust my ears. mathematics is full of paradoxes and contradictions.
|
|
|
Post by tigercubt20 on Feb 3, 2015 21:38:25 GMT
HI DEUCE, in my opinion it depends on duty cycle. a hinduminium r44 forged con rod has a duty cycle of 500 years if my memory serves me at max rpm, specified. continues usage.
so I think you should play at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. until the cone reaches peak perfection. or in my case, plan on being immortal, but there can be only one, apparently.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 21:41:33 GMT
It's the same situation with vacuum tubes, capacitors, etc... The process for creating the tungsten and other metals in vacuum tubes was lost and quality control and material purity, etc not widly available for passive components. Still, not all vintage tubes, and I'm sure cones were great.
|
|