'Ageing' and resonators

[mikenewport]

Hello all,

I am familiar with the idea that acoustic guitars improve with age. I have been fortunate to have played some older guitars, most notably a 1935 Martin. I'm also aware of the difference better tone woods can make. So how do resonators 'age'? Describing sound is really difficult but could some one please try, because I have never had the chance to play an old one and the internet throws up some poor recordings. CD recordings are mostly in a music context so don't necessarily provide a solo instrument sound Many thanks.

Mike

[slide496]

This is pretty abstract but the 30's national metal body single cones I played in music stores have had a "legendary" or extraordinary sound that kind of envelops you, tremendous amount of character, and class - like they sounded like from a movie soundtrack from where I sat playing.

I live where I could get to a national dealer and I thought well lets try a new national for comparison, and whether this was because they were new and hadn't opened up I don't know, but there was not that presence. ymmv

[pete1951]

Metal will `age` as it gets older. The changes in temperature day/night and summer/winter will do this. Also vibration will change the nature of the metal. So an old cone will sound different to a new one, I can`t say which sounds `best` but I know I Like the sound of my `30s National more than a guitar with a new NRP (or even a Continental, sorry Michael) cone.
PT

[zak71]

Someone who actually works in metallurgy told me that the aluminum smelters of the 1930s operated under very different temperatures than the ones used in contemporary manufacturing, which is why National Reso-Phonic has unsuccessfully struggled for so long to replicate the composition and (most importantly) the sound of the original national cones of the 1930s.

I know doodley-squat about metallurgy so I can't really comment on the accuracy of the above statement.

However, I do have experience playing old Nationals with original cones, old Nationals with new cones, and some new Nationals Reso-Phonics as well. Nothing sounds like a well-preserved old National with its original cone, nothing. However, putting a new cone in an old National doesn't make it sound like a new NRP, either. The old ones just sound better to me.

[petej]

I have a 31 Duolian for about six years now and i always thought it sounded pretty good on equal footing with new Nationals but not better,that was until i had the neck reset and a new rosewood fretboard this was not by choice i had to have it done the fretboard basicly fell to bits,but now it plays and sounds amazing to the point where i dont want to play any of my other resonator guitars,
theres no comparison for me
petej

[Deleted]

How old is aged?
My beaten up '70s OMI (with an amistar cone) sounds as good as any metal reso I've played / heard.
TT

[petej]

I think a lot has to do with set up,if its not set up right it wont sound as it should,i think that includes Vintage resonator guitars also, there are not many vintage Nationals after 80 plus years dont need a set up they get old and things change like everything else (including some of us)they need a service to my them play as they should.
petej

[mikenewport]

Thank you to all,

There are some great points here. It never ceases to amaze me that old instruments are revered for their tone after such a long time. A 1930's guitar is after all 80 years old. The different materials found in modern/vintage resonators is an interesting point and I suppose a direct comparison could be used with vintage and new acoustic guitars. I am familiar with the ageing of wood but not considered that metals would evolve in the same way.

I particularly like slide496's 'abstract'. I like the notion that resonators develop character. My resonators are relatively new, sound great but a little tight and restrained. I can't wait 80 years (that would make me 140 years old!!!) when do they start to ope up and sing more? Is it just time or playing time or style of play that brigs them on.

Thanks again

Mike

[slide496]

Others might not agree, but I would imagine it depends on the particular instrument for whatever reason, the setup, its construction and what its constructed out of as to whether it will open up in the way that you want. I think its been discussed there's this vibrating device that is supposed to age wood body guitars and people who have used , if I remember correctly, said that it worked for some guitars and didn't for others.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Mike,

Your questions are interesting because they raise many points, which is why I have not responded until now.

How do metal resophonic guitars change and mellow with age like wood bodied acoustic guitars do? Much of what happens is to do with everything bedding in and over the decades the whole thing becomes one. There is also the ageing of the resonator, which from years of resonating, oxidising, atmospheric changes and the effects of dust on the metal, all contribute to making it sound different to a new one. The wood neck and the glue also change over the decades as they dry out and bed in to their position. There are many factors and all contribute to the ageing process.

Do old ones sound different to new ones....and why? Well this is a big question and while I think my answer may provoke a more heated discussion, here goes...

In my mind there are no such things as new Nationals. There are 'National' instruments that were made by the original company in their various incarnations, and there are 'National Reso-Phonic' instruments that have been manufactured in California since the late 1980s. These are beautifully built high quality resonator guitars that are not replicas of 'Nationals', they are inspired by them. There are too many differences to list, but they are not the same as 'Nationals'.

It is interesting to think about the difference in sound between old Nationals when they were new and old Nationals now, because I am not sure that there is much difference. They had that amazing tone when they were new, you only have to listen to good recordings of good players from the 1930s to hear this. Also, while we are talking about what 80 years has done to them, just listen to Son House recorded in 1965 to hear that his National guitar which at the time was thirty years old, sounded just as amazing as an eighty year old one does today. Listen to Sol Hoopii and Jim & Bob to hear how incredible their National Triplates sounded when they were only a few weeks old.

Of course there is a mellowing and bedding process which does add to the overall sound and feel, but the sound has to be there in the first place. I have really noticed this with my Fine Resophonic guitars; the single cone koa FR is now seventeen years old and has been played almost every day since it was built. It sounded incredible the day I got it and it is quite difficult to explain the difference, but it has changed. The maple FR Triplate is fifteen years old and again I have noticed it change over the years. I think they had the tone when they were new, but the character and presence may be something that has to be played into a guitar for it to exist.

The closest relation to a vintage National guitar is, IMHO, a Fine Resophonic guitar. I can explain and continue this, but it is late afternoon and I need to take my dog out for a walk!

.....to be continued...

Shine On
Michael

.....

[blueshome]

In amongst all this don't forget that just because an instrument is old doesn't mean its going to sound good. I've heard quite a few folks pride and joy vintage guitars (Nationals included) that were really not good .

[preacherman]

A few things I have noticed between my first Resonator(China) and my Duolian, the Duo is thinner metal, a one piece back and sides and the weight, (I'm convinced there is an old oil drum in there somewhere on the China one).

I remember gigging the China one and how painfully heavy it was for the walk to the bus for a whole tail end to Summer. And how in less than 3 months the chrome looked really bad with rust in places. Well, I guess they'd call it mojo on a vintage players instrument.

I think construction and material in the Body is very probably a factor? and experimenting to find what you need.

What I'm doing now requires a Wood Bodied guitar and I think I found her.

[Michael Messer]

There is definitely a difference between metal bodies built with two or three pieces.

I was trying to keep off the subject of Far Eastern-built instruments, because even if I do write objectively, it looks like I am being subjective and using the space for advertising.

Many of the Far Eastern-built guitars are exceptionally heavy, that also used to be the case with some National Reso-Phonic models.

Shine On
Michael

[billyclaire]

Wow, Michael. Your comment about Son House in the 60's playing a 30 year old guitar and that instrument is now in its 80's really took me aback for a minute. How did this much time go by anyway?

I think you're right on the mark - fortunately we have recordings from the 30's and such that we can hear what these guitars sounded like and I agree, there's little difference to the way they sound today. Kinda refreshing actually.

Correlation for me is thinking about my "old" '59 Austin Healey Bugeye Sprite that I bought in 1974 and thought was old then. It was 15 years old! Now it would be 56 - sure wish I'd kept it although I would never have owned all the guitars I do now in keeping that car driveable! ha ha ha!

[twang1]

I have, as well as others, noticed all my three reso guitars have changed their sound with the years, especially my wooden one. My NRP tricone also mellowed quite a lot; when I received it brand new I wasn’t totally happy and I noticed it started to change after a couple of years of playing. Now after 11 years of heavy playing and travelling with it I enjoy it very much.
I don’t know if this is true but I noticed that all new guitars tend to change after a summer or two. May some heat be responsible for some change in sound?

About vintage Nationals: in ’97 while touring the States for months I visited many pawnshops all throughout the south looking for a good reso to buy and I must have checked out something like 50-60 Nationals (pre e-bay period…Lots of nice guitars in pawnshops!). Many needed some work and I wanted a guitar ready to be played and well set up, and at the end I choose a mint ’86 OMI Dobro that to my ears sounded very good and perfectly set up and at a killer price.
But what struck me about those vintage Nationals is that they all sounded very different from each other. Some were tin sounding, some were warm, others were boomy, different necks, differences in volume and in tones! I know, again, they needed a decent set up. But nowadays every time I hear about vintage Nationals I can’t help thinking about how they differed from each other (unlike Martin or Gibson brands, for example) and this is the main reason why in recent years I never bought a vintage National without trying it from the States.
Is it me or did you notice the same thing?
Frank