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Post by lexluthier on Mar 22, 2014 22:36:01 GMT
Hello everybody, really glad to join this forum, have been dipping into it for a while now and found it totally invaluable since discovering resonator guitars (where have I been, My life is changed!!!) Found a 14 fret Johnson without a mark on it for £175 and thought I'd give it a go. Sounded like regular guitar I and everyone else thought, so with a lot of advice given on this forum and much You tubing, got the thing resonating. Sings like a bird now(or quacks like a duck as my Brother says!) So to the 'help!' bit. After a lot of research and decision making, just bought my first tricone. Decided to buy second hand rather than new Chinese and do any work needed myself. My guitar arrived and there was the quality neck of an early Continental I was after but the body didn't look right straight away. The quality and finish just seems crude but what really caught my eye was the body at the heel point. Instead of a sweeping unbroken shoulder curve there is a flat area where the neck is mounted, as wide as the fingerboard, going from front to back. Looks really odd and ugly, never seen this feature before on another tricone, let alone a Continental! My question is does anybody recognise this distinctive feature? I fear I've bought a marriage and if so need to address the seller quickly. The advice of the good members of this forum will be massively appreciated. Thank you in advance. |
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Post by DaveRed on Mar 22, 2014 23:05:57 GMT
lexluthier,
Welcome to the forum. A picture(s) would help. But if the body looks crudely made - then it probably is. When we lay out our hard earned cash and get a lemon we try to convince ourselves it isn't a lemon. Believe me we've all done it.
Dave
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 22, 2014 23:18:03 GMT
Hi Lexluthier,
Welcome to our forum.
Dave is right that we really need to see some photos of your Tricone
Shine On
Michael
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Post by lexluthier on Mar 23, 2014 0:52:49 GMT
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Post by lexluthier on Mar 23, 2014 1:14:24 GMT
Hi again, struggled with that, can re-fret a guitar in my sleep but a complete IT idiot! Showing is a photo of said heel area, hope you can see the feature I'm referring to, also a picture of the cone well, which to my surprise is steel.(I know nothing) I made the assumption all the early Continentals where German silver, I've now learned this may be not the case. This body is brass, not at all well finished before plated, a lot of sharp edges too. The heel point is slightly curved where it meets body, as if it should be on a properly curved shouldered body. The neck stick is right and it has the correct label inside(1992 I think) Thanks people. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Mar 23, 2014 9:39:14 GMT
Hi lexluthier,
I have never seen a Continental guitar with that shaping on the body, but it is a Continental. I know that because of the body mouldings and one or two other details.
The soundwell should be made of steel and should also be screwed to the neck-stick, which appears to have been sculpted away from the soundwell. Those screw-holes should have screws in them that fix the soundwell to the neck-stick. Where it has been sculpted away, you need to fit a wedge to make it tight, then put the screws in.
The strap button is in a bad position (IMO), it will destroy all guitar cases and the guitar will not be balanced when you use it with the strap.
When Hans Graaf started Continental guitars, he contacted me because he knew that I had a round neck Tricone and he had only ever seen a square neck Tricone. So his first instruments were based on what he had seen, which was a square neck National Tricone. This does not account for your guitar's weird body shape, it's just a bit of history.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by washboardchris on Mar 23, 2014 9:55:04 GMT
Hi, It looks as if someone has been at it in the past. Trouble with resos is that they come apart & people love to tinker .If you are not satisfied & the guitar is not what was listed(ebay?  ) I would get on to the seller& either ask for a reduction as you have to put in some work on it or send it back & save your money till the next one comes along. |
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Post by lexluthier on Mar 23, 2014 18:54:12 GMT
Thank you very much for your insights Michael  Although I've been repairing and setting up guitars for 25+ and have had many through my hands, I've had no personal experience with resonators other than my Johnson, pretty rare beasts here in the wilds of Lincolnshire! With that experience and a background in precision engineering I'm very comfortable with how Resonators basically work and how to set them up(learning all the time of course!) The reason you saw the screws, supports and packing pieces missing is that I have removed them to try and cure the problem of the neck seating flush with the body. When the guitar arrived I could get a credit card under the heel! With the packing removed and the neck stick brought up to the pan, the gap disappears but the neck is then too far back making a kink in the fret board. This along with the curve in the heel point/flat point on the body issue lead me to the conclusion it was a marriage but I happily bow to your knowledge and experience. I can only suppose it being so early in the production run, Herr Graff was still experimenting! I notice he tried what he must have considered to be 'improvements' to the original, the curved neck stick being a point in case, perhaps supposedly allowing better sound projection being not so near the cones. The block under the neck stick at the heel being another example. Just a bit gutted at the quality of this body compared with others I've researched but you live and learn! I'll find a 'cure' for the above mentioned problems I'm sure, just wanted to share the information, and have a winge! Thanks for listening. |
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Post by lexluthier on Apr 22, 2014 22:08:48 GMT
Hi again. Despite my previous gripes and a long list of things wrong with this guitar that I've not and wont go into, I've fallen in love with it and not sent it back to its former cruel owner! A substantial sum was refunded after the gentleman was reminded of items on the previously mentioned list that he had overlooked or forgotten, the guitar then came in at the price of the cheapest current Asian imports and has bags more character and charm.(IMO) Michaels comment about it being a bit of history held more resonance than the guitar did when it arrived and really helped me rationalise things so thank you for that Sir! The guitars rehab is helping me understand the nuances of a tricone and to further bond with and understand this one (...and help me not go mental since being made redundant, setting up a tricone gives you a lot to think about!!!) A few more questions if I may.... Is there a standard neck angle for tricone guitars? The design seems to suggests the neck be parallel with the body. After removing the neck and centering it to the body, this is what Ive done for my first set-up. The break angle seems OK (read every bit of advise you given this Michael), the volume is good but the tone, while powerful, lacks some treble, especially on the thicker strings. I'm making comparisons with National guitar.com you tube demos as they are good quality sound and new freshly set-up guitars. All of Lennys guitars have a more distinct metallic 'clang' while mine is very, very mellow. The answer may come from my next queston. Continental cones have now become an industry standard of sorts and as Robin at Busker has confirmed, made by people who know what they are doing! Ive heard that before 2004 this may not have been the case(my brothers 2000ish Johnson seems to support this) Listening to Mike Lewis talk about how hard this is to master leads me to ask if Michael or anyone else knows when the guys at AMI got it right. My tricone is from 1992 and only No.39 off the production line, had they cracked it by then or am I flogging a dead horse trying to pull a sound out of my tricone that the cones cant produce. All thoughts on this and the history of Continental cone will be very gratefully received. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 1:05:29 GMT
Hello. I have assembled and setup a number of resonators though quick to say an amateur. I cannot see all of the problems in detail, but I suggest that you attempt to glue a piece of similar wood onto the curved neck sick, to make it basically straight so once the neck angle is set, you can attach it to the three points on the sound well.
Also consider either yourself or find a brass band instrument tech to attempt tto hammer out the neck heel seat that appears to me to ave been flattened by some hacker.
There are plenty of pix on the web to see what it should look like. It's basic stuff. The hardest part it fitting the heel, which in your case will be the challenge.
Re tone, many factors in play. Work on that once the neck is set.
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Post by resonatorman on Apr 23, 2014 7:38:12 GMT
Maybe the guys who make the Continental cones know what they are doing NOW, but they certainly did not in the 90ties!
I'm not in Tricones, but what I've seen then what they did to biscuit cones convinced me they had no clue WSE. For example, the upper rim (where the biscuit sits on) of their cones was too big in diameter - of course they didn't throw this batch of cones away, instead the biscuits were mounted INSIDE the bowl where there should never be in the 1st place. They just were too small in diameter for the faulty cones. I approached one of them guys on the fair, he didn't get it - tried to convince me it was alright. So much for early Continental cones. The guitars didn't sound good either, no wonder.
Just get yourself some decent National cones, that should improve your tone big time.
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Post by Michael Messer on Apr 23, 2014 8:19:54 GMT
Lexluthier,
I am pleased we have been able to help and advise you.
Regarding cones; Continental cones are hand-spun by two expert metal spinners in Shanghai. Their cones are extremely good and when doing comparison tests in guitars not built by National or National Resophonic Guitars, there is very little difference between Continental & National. Part of this is down to me taking vintage National cones to show the Continental guys. It comes down to taste more than quality. In my opinion, the best cones in the world (closest to vintage National cones) are made by Mike Lewis at Fine Resophonic, but he very rarely sells them as spares.
Resonatorman; I am not sure that I understand your reason for being so negative about what you are assuming were Continental cones made 20 years ago. Things move on and people do get skilled at their craft as the years go by.
Of all the craftspeople and semi-skilled workers that I have met in China, none have been 'clueless' about their work, in fact quite the opposite. It is the Western customers (guitar companies) who are clueless, because they are the people who create the designs for the Chinese factories to produce. Most cheap Far Eastern resonator guitars are not designed, they are just created from a photo sent to the factory. The guy who runs the company who manufacture my guitars has been in the resonator guitar business since the very beginning of Chinese manufacturing. In his previous job as factory manager, he was involved with most of the Chinese resonators from the past 30 years and I can tell you that the very first Western customer that he ever had any dealings with, got involved with the designs, or had met in person, was me! So before you criticise the Chinese cone spinner for being useless, you should be far more critical of the Western customer who abuses both his suppliers and his customers, because he doesn't care what he buys or sells, and he will sell everything, no matter how bad it is! If the Western customer had any conscience, the guitar you saw in the 90s would never have been sold.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by resonatorman on Apr 23, 2014 11:27:59 GMT
I am not sure that I understand your reason for being so negative about what you are assuming were Continental cones made 20 years ago. Things move on and people do get skilled at their craft as the years go by. I think you didn't get my point. I'm far from bashing the chinese resonator builders, I had some very decent Johnsons. Now I've moved on to vintage Nationals ONLY, but that's another story. What I said is that at the time the threadstarter's Continental was made the guys WERE clueless and no mistake! So it's a good idea to put some decent cones in IMHO. Again: I personally saw those biscuit cones with a rim of, say, 7cm diameter - the biscuits have 6cm. This batch of cones should have been thrown away, period. I can't see how someone can NOT be negative about these cones being used and sold! Things move on, but if you had bought a Continental of this period you end up with a piece of crap. |
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Post by Michael Messer on Apr 23, 2014 12:04:32 GMT
Resonatorman, regarding your point, I do agree and did misunderstand your comment. It was good though, because it got me ranting about a subject I am passionate about.
Shine On
Michael
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2014 16:58:40 GMT
Hello! I have an early Continental Style I as well... it needed tons of work. From my limited experience with these I believe; the early, early ones are internally built like OMI metal body Dobro's The screw in the back pulls the neck stick back into the joint as opposed to a National set-up, which wedges it against the top, the neck stick was carved to curve underneath the well. I think they changed this around 1993-4 It seems that the neck block if over tightened will deform the heel area if everything is not in perfect line, you may have to shim the inside between the block and the stick. I had to work on mine for about 2 years... had to re-do somethings... previous owner took the neck off with a drill so I had my work cut out for me! You can check out my lengthy previous posting here... michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/4873/1993-continental-tricone-rehabIt's a sweet guitar, the cones are fabulous! Good luck with yours! |
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) I would get on to the seller& either ask for a reduction as you have to put in some work on it or send it back & save your money till the next one comes along.
Although I've been repairing and setting up guitars for 25+ and have had many through my hands, I've had no personal experience with resonators other than my Johnson, pretty rare beasts here in the wilds of Lincolnshire! With that experience and a background in precision engineering I'm very comfortable with how Resonators basically work and how to set them up(learning all the time of course!) The reason you saw the screws, supports and packing pieces missing is that I have removed them to try and cure the problem of the neck seating flush with the body. When the guitar arrived I could get a credit card under the heel! With the packing removed and the neck stick brought up to the pan, the gap disappears but the neck is then too far back making a kink in the fret board. This along with the curve in the heel point/flat point on the body issue lead me to the conclusion it was a marriage but I happily bow to your knowledge and experience. I can only suppose it being so early in the production run, Herr Graff was still experimenting! I notice he tried what he must have considered to be 'improvements' to the original, the curved neck stick being a point in case, perhaps supposedly allowing better sound projection being not so near the cones. The block under the neck stick at the heel being another example. 
