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Post by amccj7 on Jan 31, 2014 13:15:58 GMT
Regarding cone metallurgy,,,, is I think what your asking? Then check out all archived posts on ,, www.resohangout.com/forum/Look for "Slideman1939" He,s an older fella with a vast knowledge of prewar history. Any how great reading.
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Post by gaucho on Jan 31, 2014 17:41:11 GMT
I was kinda asking about metallurgy. This cone sounded so bad, it was as if it was an lower grade version (since it was in basically what was a bottom of the line National in the '30). I reworked it a bit more with ball point, pens and wooden spoon handles. Also did the white glue trick at the cone and biscuit join. The cone will not sit completely level in the well as it just been too bet up. I got it as close as I can. Put it back together and it initially sounded a little better. After sitting overnight it got a good bit better still. I think I'm going to let it sit for a few weeks and just play it. It's definitely sounding better.
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Post by amccj7 on Feb 3, 2014 14:37:24 GMT
Slideman1939 describes a story of the Dopyera,s melting down car pistons ?, To make cones! It would seem true of this time period. Every thing was used and reused not like today. Its likely different materials resulted in different sounding Cones??? He also tells a story of testing a snippet of cone at a metallurgical lab. And has exact % of properties used.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 4, 2014 7:48:45 GMT
Hi there ,
All this talk of original cones, trying to resurrect them by redoing the biscuit rim and such, with a ballpoint pen.
I have two vintage National cones i have had to retire in the past (for NRP hot-rod cones) as one kept sagging, and the other was a more severe collapse. Neither would hold their shape under tension despite previous attempts at reshaping them.
Last night I thought, what the hell, lets have another go at the old cones and see if I can reshape them again, using the ballpoint pen methos. I thought the ballpoint would go through the cone to easily, but it doesn't.
Using just enough pressure to bend the metal. I managed to creae a new biscuit rim the cone, whereit should be - by placing the cone upside down on a flat surface (my kitchen granite worktop) and reworking a circle into the metal, in areas of the circle where it had been squashed.
Then placing the cone the right way up with it sitting on my worktop, checking with some downward finger pressure on the cone, from the biscuit region only, to see if the cone edge is touching the worktop all the way round. Inevitably, you find areas where it is not. Youcan also check by still holding the cone down (mimicing string downward pressure) and lightly tapping the cone all around, near the outer rim, and listening for duller sound of the cone rim moving up or down (ie. when it should be seating fully, all around).
Really please with the work i have done on both cones. They both seem to hold their shape better now, with downward pressure.
Just need to try them out now in the Nationals they came from.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 4, 2014 9:26:16 GMT
Us old timer National people have been using ballpoint pens to repair cones for decades. I keep telling people how good it is and to reconsider before they trash their vintage cones!
There was a time when you had no choice, you either bought a replacement saucepan lid from OMI, or you reshaped your damaged cone with a ballpoint pen.
I once ordered a 9.5 inch cone from OMI Dobro, it was back in the early 1980s. It took a few weeks to arrive and when it did it was completely squashed and destroyed because they had posted it to the UK from the US in a padded envelope!!!! I kid you not, this is true. I had to make an expensive 'person to person' call to explain what had happened, and I can remember they took some convincing, they wouldn't believe it was damaged! They eventually sent a second one which arrived properly packed in a box. It was for a Duolian that had an irreparable cone, so I really had no choice but to fit this heavyweight saucepan lid of a resonator, which was totally useless. I sold the guitar a few weeks later to George Gruhn at Gruhn's in Nashville.
Shine On Michael
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Post by snakehips on Feb 4, 2014 15:58:43 GMT
Hi again !
Sorry about my last posting !!
I was typing it on my iphone this morning while getting my arms pulled by my wee boy. Really should have spell-checked etc for errors, before sending my message.
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Post by gaucho on Feb 4, 2014 16:34:19 GMT
Mine is sounding pretty decent now, definitely more of a vintage tone. Still lacks a good bit of the sustain that the HR had. I'm reasonably sure most people would choose the tone of the Hot Rod in side by side testing. I'll post a sound clip for opinions, soon.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 6, 2014 12:03:14 GMT
Hi again !
Tried my reshaped vintage National cone back in it's 1934 Duolian (14 fret neck). This cone was previously thought unrepairable by me - and I had tried a few times before.
First placement revealed I had raised the overall height of the cone too much. More tweaking (of the outer rim) resulted in the biscuit sitting at a correct-looking height.
Strung up (without the coverplate on) to Open D - and it held it's shape and sounded good. Tuned up to regular E tuning - it still held it's shape well, no sign of collapse. Sounds great. The 1st string is a bit raspy (for want of a better description) - like the cone or biscuit somewhere isn't seated fully - but fairly minor.
Took strings off, turned biscuit around a bit on the cone (to see if I could reduce that problem), and restrung with the coverplate on this time. Still holding it's shape in regular E tuning - but now 1st and 2nd string are a bit more raspy than before. Will need a bit more tweaking - BUT - I am amazed that I may have actually brought life back into this cone and thus the guitar.
To try out my 1930 Style "O" cone next, back in it's own guitar. This cone was never as bad a collapse as the 1934 Duolian's one - so I've got big hopes for this one.
I suppose I'm a bit more experienced in reshaping cones now - this is encouraging !!
Will need to see how the cones stand up to my usual heavy playing with thumb+fingerpicks etc.
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Post by gaucho on Feb 6, 2014 13:53:30 GMT
Hey Snake, I'm liking this cone in my Style 0 as well. It's been in 3 other guitars and I've tweaked it several times, but never liked the way it sounded. I'm pretty sure I will leave it in there and now both my 30's single cones have reserrected vintage cones in them. I took it to see a friend of mine yesterday, who is an excellent player. It sounded really great in his hands, with me sitting in front of it. If this was my only single cone reso, I'd probably opt for the overall more balanced tone of the Hot Rod. But this thing has a nice vintage bark to it now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 13:08:25 GMT
FYI I just repaired a collapsed original cone on one of my 12 fret duolians. I had a roll of aluminum foil tape as used in air duct fabrication (NOT duct tape). It is micro thin solid aluminum with adhesive backing that totally conforms/telegraphs thru to the spirals when rubbed with a fine blunt point, of course after you first reshape the cone. Put in on the inside. It looks as if you coated the cone with aluminum. Is holding up fine and the tone is fine wish I could say same for my playing...
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Post by pete1951 on Feb 27, 2014 15:16:35 GMT
I use the aluminium tape a lot for screening electric guitars, will try it on some old cones. I also have some tape (again aluminium, but much thicker than the air-duct stuff) that is used in aircraft, it might do for very damaged cones. Thanks for the idea PT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 23:21:05 GMT
The stuff I used measures appox .004 in thick and 2 in wide. Probably available at plumbing supply or home depot. I set it so one edge touches one point on the circumference and trim to match curve.
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