Vintage National Cone questions

[gaucho]

Was there ever much difference in the 1930's cones or did they use the same cone in all the biscuit bridge guitars? I know about the early cones with hand trimmed edges vs the ones that came along in '32 or so with the rolled edges. Any other differences? I Have 2 vintage cones and a couple NRP Hot Rods. One is out of a '31 Style 0 and has the hand cut edge. It was pretty beat up but I reshaped it and it sounded good in the Style 0, but I couldn't ever get it to not rattle and buzz. I swapped it out for a Hot Rod, different sound but still good. That cone is now in my '32 Duolian (that had a Hot Rod in it when I found it) and sounds awesome with only occasional buzzes that are easy to correct. The other vintage cone I have came out of a '34 Trojan that sounded awful (no sustain at all). The Trojan now has a HR cone and sounds good. I tried this cone in my Duolian (cone looks to be in decent shape, I've seen much worse , including my other one, that still sound great!) and same thing, no sustain and very banjo like. I really love the sound of a proper vintage cone. They have a certain, abrupt twang (slightly banjo-like, in a very good way) to the top 2 strings that you just don't get from a Hot Rod. Today, I put the cone out of the Trojan into my Style 0. It sounds sort of decent, the twang it definitely there, but there is still virtually no sustain. Everything else is the same (I even used the same biscuit bridge from the Hot Rod that was in it) and it had good sustain before the swap.

I really want to use this cone! It looks in decent shape and has a hint of the tone I'm looking for, but this seems to be the 3rd strike (sounded bad in 3 different vintage Nats). I'm going to leave it in for a couple weeks and see if it improves any, but I don't have high hopes. Any thoughts on this? Did the cheaper Trojans have cheaper cones in them? Here's the 2 guitars:

[resonatorman]

Hi Gaucho,

seems we share the same disease I also do a lot of coneswapping (and biscuitswapping also).
To my experience a cone with no sustain has "air" somewhere in the chain, be it the bridge that is loose in the biscuit or the biscuit itself that has no proper contact to the cone. The latter is very common when the rim, where the biscuit sits on, is no longer plane, maybe check this out. Without a decent tool this is pretty hard to come by though. A workaround that is often used is putting glue between cone and biscuit (must be bone glue). Always try a bad cone with a good new Natreso biscuit, after that you know whether it's the cone itself or the biscuit.
Oh yes, and when the cone is separated from the biscuit it is always a good idea to put it on a precision scale! A true old National cone weighs around 27 g (that's .95 oz.). IF your Trojan cone is a lot heavier, maybe it's another manufacturing?

[wolvoboy]

has your early cone got four pins holding the cone or one in the middle, mine has a cut edge and four pins holding it to the biscuit,and i have not yet experienced any buzzing at all,i have only opened my duolian once as my grandson thought it was a good place to put his crayons through the f holes. otherwise i would not have opened it up, but looking back i'm glad i had a look inside found out a few things that i did not know about :that the cone is genuine and that the body has slots for a hooks on cover-plate,
always wondered why the cover-plate was not Central.
wolvoboy

[gaucho]

I'm really liking the tone and volume it's putting out, but the lack of sustain is a deal killer. I've always avoided using the bead of glue trick, but I'm definitely going to give that a try. What is "bone glue"? We probably call it something else over here in the states. I believe I've read that Elmer's wood glue (or maybe it just plain ol Elmer's glue, the white stuff?) is good to use. The cone is definitely a bit dodgy around the peak where it attaches to the biscuit. I'm sure this is a National cone and both of my cones have the 4 little tack holes and the center screw. I just usually use the center screw. Any more thoughts form anyone? I really want ton use this original cone!

[resonatorman]

Sorry, I think you call it hide glue. It's that animal glue that gets ultrahard but can easily be separated by steam or heat in general. It's used a lot by luthiers. I just wanted to point out not to use epoxy.
The real deal would be fixing the cone's inside rim though.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Gaucho,

I have not contributed to this thread until now because it is such a big subject that I don't know where to start or stop, and I am very busy at present.

Regarding the reshaping of an old cone; try using a ballpoint pen to roll around the damaged edges to improve their shape. Also, the positioning and fit of the biscuit is absolutely crucial to getting it to sound good.

To make a Hot Rod or Continental cone closer to the sound of a vintage cone (this is NOT RECOMMENDED BY THE MANUFACTURER!) ....try using wet & dry sanding paper on the inside of the cone to make it lighter. This can be done, but it take time, patience and a bit of luck as it can go wrong. I have seen it done successfully. I have also seen old cones re-spun and while this really is a risky thing to do, I have seen it produce amazing results.

The tone and overall sound of a cone is totally down to the skills of the cone spinner; how much pressure they use, where they leave a little more metal as they push the shaping with the stick, how fast it spins....etc. The spinners at National in the golden era knew what they were doing and had control over what did what and how to get a great cone. That skill has virtually disappeared, only a handful of people in the world today can do this properly.

Shine On
Michael

[gaucho]

Thanks Michael (and everyone else) for the very insightful replies! Learning all about these things is every bit as fun and interesting as playing these great instruments! Michael, would you agree that there's something about a vintage cone, especially in the high strings, that you just can't get with a new cone? I like the low end of the Hot Rods a little better and they are excellent substitutes. This clip comes to mind, check out Sonny's Landreth's playing. You just know it's a vintage Duolian with a vintage cone: SONNY LANDRETH AND JR WELLS . The cone I've put in my Style 0 definitely has remnants of that tone, just no sustain. I'm pretty sure it's the biscuit and cone junction area as that part is pretty bent up, I'll keep at it and try the Elmer's glue trick. I also have 2 Hot Rods in the closet and I may attempt the wet/dry sanding trick. to get the high end of a vintage cone with the bottom end of a HR would be awesome! Has anyone used Mike Lewis' Fine Resophonic cones as replacements? Can you even purchase them separately?

[wolvoboy]

Hi Michael i used to work in a factory 50 years ago making pot lids which were hand spun, it is a very skilled job and i think potentially dangerous as you could quite easily slip and cut your self,i did it for a couple of years and i would not call myself skilled, it is a process, which took many years to learn,a lot of these old skills have died out and all the knowledge that goes with it has gone too ,so i can imagine what it must have took to create a National cone,one of the tools we used was a steel bar with a round ball on the end which when finished would leave the same kind of grooves as in a cone but much thicker.
wolvoboy

[pete1951]

The problem with using most sorts of glue is that they shrink as they dry, and do not fill gaps. Epoxy glue however does this job BUT is often too hard to remove if you need a second repair. If you are using a new biscuit on an old cone, you could stretch some cling-film over the cone, put a bead of epoxy on the biscuit, and tighten the screw. (making sure to put a mark on both cone/biscuit so they line up) You can ,when dry remove the film, and have a perfect biscuit/cone joint. This may not be as good as a perfect wood/aluminium joint, but the epoxy will fill any voids so should sound better if your cone/bisc. do not meet as they should.
PT
I have never done this on a cone, but it works well as a quick repair where you need to fill a void

[resonatorman]

Jan 30, 2014 10:10:02 GMT Michael Messer said:

Regarding the reshaping of an old cone; try using a ballpoint pen to roll around the damaged edges to improve their shape.

That describes how it's usually done - but it is not much use because you do not flatten out the edge. The proper way is re-stamp the rim with a tool that fits.

...try using wet & dry sanding paper on the inside of the cone to make it lighter.

I did this once (and never again!), it took hours to get even 1g off - but it paid. The cone sounded much better afterwards, still works in a Duolian.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Resonatorman,

I have worked on many cones with a ballpoint pen and while I am sure stamping it is better, I have successfully repaired many cones doing it that way. There was a time when nobody knew anything about all this stuff and there were no spares available, so we made it up as we went along. Using a ballpoint pen to smooth out the rim and the spirals, and Araldite (two-part epoxy adhesive) to strengthen weak areas, can work very well.

Shine On
Michael

[gaucho]

Hey Michael, I'd love to hear a bit more about the epoxy when you get a minute. I assume its the stuff we get over here that's in a 2 chambered syringe looking thing that mixes it when you push the plunger to dispense it. Do you form ribs/lines on the inside surface of the damaged area or just kind of "paint it on to stiffen an area? Not sure mine needs that but I'll try everything I can to salvage it….

[rbe]

Cone variations:
1- Hand trimmed (I think the earliest do not have the spiral pattern embossed in it (maybe only used in wood-body Triolians))
2- Rolled edge
3- 14-fret version with extra linear embossing around the perimeter

I do not want to offend, but please do not epoxy your biscuit to the cone. You don't need that kind of bond. Hide glue, white glue or carpenter's glue will work. If you can't just use a small bead, then there is a problem with the top of the cone or the bottom of the biscuit. The screw and the string pressure will keep it all together. The glue will improve contact. But you do want to be able to remove the biscuit without destroying the cone.

[gaucho]

Thanks rbe. This cone came out of a 14 fretter (trojan). I can't see how that would be a problem going into a 12 fret Style 0, cn you?

[rbe]

Gaucho, A 14-fret cone should work okay in a 12-fret body. Lack of reverb is probably a setup issue. Break angle or how the cone is seated. When you reshape the cone, you need to bring it back to original dimensions. With very little pressure on it, It should seat with complete, uniform, contact in the well. Make sure the inner rim is not touching the well, too. When cones sag, the inner rim comes in contact with the well and limits the cone's vibration characteristics. Sorry if you already know this stuff. It is just a good starting point to troubleshoot your problem.