Lightnin' Bolt Style O in Australia on eBay

[snakehips]

Hi there !

Wondered had you all spotted the Lighnin' Bolt National (single cone Style O/N) - with Style "O" type headstock (not tricone headstock) - on eBay. The seller (with zero feedback history) is supposedly from Australia and says the guitar belongs to a Country music friend who has had it since the mid thirties (I think).

This is the eBay link :
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260197340014&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

He is only wanting $15,000 Aussie dollars, around $13,000 US - which I'd expect is around £6,500 !!! (of course, you'd have the hefty import tax and duties on top of that !!!!!!)

The seller has posted better pictures now - including a great pic of the end-pin end of the guitar showing amazing-looking lightning-bolt sand-blastings.

The original posted ebay pictures were poor quality pics that really made the item auction look dodgy - a scam. However, with new pictures posted, the whole thing looks more genuine.
I have never seen pictures (in books or anywhere on the net) of the sides of a lightnin-bolt National so I don't think this can be anythinkg other than genuine ?

Who knows whether this would be German Silver or Brass bodied ??
Serial no. S186 on the body, by the end-pin but another serial no. on the headstock end - 1711.

A later National replacement neck ?

Interesting.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Richard,

I saw the guitar turn up on eBay & the thread on IGS. There was never any reason to think that it was a scam.

Although very early, the serial number on the body fits in with another Lightning Bolt Style O (S188) mentioned in Bob Brozman's book with a (?) as to its existence.The neck is probably from a run of Triolian necks. Whether it was factory fitted in 1930 or fitted later is not known, and without seeing the guitar it is not possible to tell.

I would check this guitar with Mark Makin. Mark has a greater understanding of serial numbers and sequence in Nationals than anyone else this side of the Mendip Hills.



Never mind. Leeophonic was trying to be helpful and actually did achieve getting the vendor to tell us more about the instrument & show us some better pix.

There is still a lot we do not know about the history of National & Dobro guitars. New information is being gathered all the time and one should never assume that because it has not been seen before, that it is a fake. There are many more one-off and limited edition instruments in existense than we know about.

Shine On
Michael.

[Mark Makin]

"Hello Richard
Yes, I think we've all been watching this little chap!
Just to flesh out the thinking a bit - I know of 6 different "lightnin" instruments.

Unfortunately, at the moment the only numbers I know in the style 0 sequence are (this one) S186 and S188.
However, I DO know of S105 and S112. Both these instruments are PLAIN with Tricone headstocks and (supposedly??)German Silver bodies.
This leads me to believe that the chronological sequence of construction might be:

1. single cone instrument built like a Tricone with same materials.(S1(00) - S150?)
2. single cone "lightnin" (possibly 50 instruments? maybe from S150 to S200). May be made of steel as well.
3. Variation 1 steel bodied Style O's. (Earliest I know of is S210,S233,S236,S238)
4. Subsequent brass Style O's.

The one "fly in the ointment" is the "Lightnin" numbered A12 on Notecannons (which I believe is Lennys()

In Bobs book, there is a run of "A" numbers (A2, A3, A11, A26, and subsequently A29 and A46) which
are all Style 1 and 3 Tricones with 2 pat numbers. I don't think Bobs inclusion of them as 1935/6
"Chicago" numbers is correct.
It also seems odd that there are no other numbers listed here for the next 350 instruments!
From the styles of the instruments - I would rather see these dated around 1930 than 1935 as Bob has done.

I think this might be a different A series. (No! It's also NOT the Bakelite neck Triolian series. These reached much higher numbers
around a year earlier).Maybe the A12 "Lightnin" would then fit in here (around June 1930).

As you can see, Richard, this is totally conjecture, and just an attempt to quantify how many
"Lightnin" guitars there might be. My guess is around 50. If every missing instrument serial number is a "Lightnin"
there can still be only around 100!!!

If my old serial number sidekick BB has some time while down in Oz, maybe he could help out??"

[snakehips]

Hi again Uncle Michael and Uncle Mark !
Happy New Year to you all !!!

It is quite exciting watching these things develop - ultra rare guitars. I am getting a flavour of what it must have been like for you guys 20-30 years ago when trying to decipher the National serial number "codes".

It must feel weird now that all these extra people are chipping in with their pennies-worth of guess-work these days - especially when the only info they mostly have to go on is all the published stuff that you guys spent years working on and telling people about ? !!

Perhaps Uncle Bob will get to see this guitar in person ?

I suppose with the probable non-original neck it's value would be less than if it had a tricone style neck ?

Then again, it might be its original neck, pulled from a batch of Triolian style necks (as mentioned) ? Does that not look more like a mahogany neck though ?
Certainly, the decal looks all messed up just like a polychrome triolian I have.
An early-ish Style "O" I have has the square-cut headstock slots - S618.


I always thought the square-cut slots were the earliest slot types for a style "O" - perhaps not ?

Perhaps they tried it for a while AFTER the earliest single-cone models (Style O/N/Bolts) as more of a cosmetic thing then decided they didn't like it ?
This Lightnin' Bolt one doesn't have slots like that.

[Mark Makin]

Hi Richard
I wouldn't over-complicate things if I were you. I think you're right about the neck being a replacement, substitute or just what was handy at the time! There is honestly no other justification for it having TWO numbers. The other problem is WHAT LISTING IS THE 1711 FROM? It can only be a neck pre-numbered from the late 1929 wood Triolians(??). Any other NO PREFIX listing is for 14 fret instruments of the mid 30s.
I, too, would concur with the order of headstocks being Mahogany Triplate, Mahogany Flat square slot, maple Flat square slot, maple routed.
Not easy... is it??

[snakehips]

Fun though !

[Michael Messer]

That looks like a pretty nice neck. Especially with Mark's name on the sheild With no tuners or strings, it looks like it is no longer on a guitar?

Shine On
Michael

[snakehips]

Hi again !

No, no ! That Style "O" is up and running again - thanks to Dave King !

I got it on eBay about 2 to 2.5 years ago, from someone in the UK. It has a German Silver coverplate - I could see the plating worn off the coverplate playing area, on the eBay pics and thought the whole thing could be german silver or even steel. Either way I'd get a good guitar. Turns out the body is brass - front+sides and back ! I actually think the tailpiece is German Silver - despite that being unlikely ?? I've done deep scratches on its underside and no brass colour showed through - just dull grey/silver. Magnet doesn't stick on anything either.

It had quite a thin neck and quite a warp. Dave sorted that out and installed carbon fibre rod(s) under a new fretboard. Now it plays good. Unfortunately it didn't have the original cone.

[Michael Messer]

Just checking

Shine On
Michael

[lee holliday]

Well the auction ended and some lucky chap from Canada bought it!
Hurry up Colin and get it on Notecannons for the nonbelievers!
I notice Brozman is in the same area of Australia, strange!
Regards Lee

[Colin McCubbin]

Aloha Lee!

It is actually being bought by an old friend of mine who lives in Queensland. So it may be a while before I get to see it.

It seems to have had a hard life and shows lots of playing wear, so depending on what state it is in it will either go to Steve Evans in NZ or Marc Schoenberger in California for some TLC (neck wringing etc)

While exchanging emails with the owner last week he said:

It also has much history in early Country Music Industry in Australia as was used in quite a few recording studios with some greats of the industry.

When I can I'll certainly post any details and pics at notecannons.

Colin

[Colin McCubbin]

Mark wrote:

The one "fly in the ointment" is the "Lightnin" numbered A12 on Notecannons (which I believe is Lennys()

Yes, as far as I know he still has it...

Colin

[Colin McCubbin]

The owner was Australian Country 'Hall of Famer' Kevin King.... He bought it in the early 60's and has always played it Hawaiian style with a nut riser, although I'm told the neck shows considerable signs of finger wear from being played as a Spanish style round neck in it's younger days.

It is on it's way to Marc Schoenberger in California, for some chiropractic care and TLC. I don't expect to see it much before mid summer, as Marc likes to straighten necks slowly over a period of 6 weeks or more, (he once told me he has a solar powered heat box that he leaves them in(?)) That's California for you!

He will, I suspect be able to give us chapter and verse on that neck/body combination. I haven't ever seen a lightning bolt with a Hawaiian square neck, but if it did have one first it is often possible to see marks on the body where the edge of the old square heel sat, which would answer that question. Or, perhaps the first owner had a wooden Triolian and just 'upgraded' the body.. Marc may have some ideas when he commences surgery!

[Colin McCubbin]

BTW,

Thanks, Lee for bringing it to my attention!!!

[lee holliday]

Colin,
When I first saw this on Ebay it rang alarm bells with the quality of photo,s, zero feedback and an OTT Aussie sellers name, but as the enqiries grew the seller revealed his hand and the suspicions turned to amazement that another treasure had bobbed up from Bikini bottom! I am a little embarrased that I accused the seller of underhand scamming but as the man in the orthapedic shoes said " I stand to be corrected ! ".
I remember about ten years ago saying do you think this Gold 12 String Havana is for real?
Anyway I have this Tricone with missing engraving can anyone work it out SO- H--P-- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards Lee.