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Post by Stevie on Jul 22, 2012 13:25:16 GMT
Does anyone have any experience with Gibson Firebirds? I have a "Zebrawood" 'Bird. Now, before suffering the slings and arrows normally associated with these axes, I should point out that they are neither as big nor as heavy as they look. Given the shorter scale length, I find it comparable to a Strat! (size for size) There can be no excuse for the c**py machine heads though. Gibson ought to have their collective gonads infested with the fleas of a thousand camel's a**eholes for letting such mediocrity pass by unchallenged for so long, but I digress! When I bought the instrument, the stop bar had the strings going over the top and underneath, but the tone seemed more like "ping pang pong" rather than "ting tang tong" (if you get my meaning?) I restrung it underneath the stop bar using 11thou' MM Nickel Masters, but the "pung pung" tone is still there... I of course altered the height of the stop bar to compensate for the understringing, but I am gradually drawing a blank with this one. I am sore tempted to invest in a "TonePros" bridge and stop bar combo, but before I splash the cash, does any one have any suggestions ("cut and run" won't pass muster here! Owning a 'Bird is an obsession, akin to being a member of a select club, a little like this esteemed forum!) Related to this question, there must be many Lester and 335 owners out there, what is the consensus regarding over stringing and understringing the stop bar on Gibson type instruments?
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Post by mitchfit on Jul 22, 2012 15:16:16 GMT
not sure i'm getting the string path description correct. are you saying the string starts into the pick-up side of the stop bar, and then either over the top [or] under the bottom and to the bridge? the jpg at below address shows the strings going straight through the stop bar? www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/gibson-firebird-v-zebrawood-wings-electric-guitarperhaps a previous owner changed this around? mitchfit
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 15:48:22 GMT
I'll put my neck on the line and say the over / understringing isn't the problem if the tone sounds similar. What are the individual saddles made of? Are they original? Have the slots become a little wider due to wear? Maybe stick your top e saddle on the b string, and see if the extra tightness helps. If so, bob may be your uncle. TT
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Post by Ian McWee on Jul 22, 2012 16:48:29 GMT
Hi Stevie ~ if none of the incoming advice here helps, give John Alderson at Delta Resonators a call - he's built several Firebird's & knows 'em well ;o)
P.S ~ got your e-mail mate.
Slide On!
Ian.
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Post by Stevie on Jul 22, 2012 18:05:29 GMT
Thanks Mitch, TT, Ian, That is the exact model of Firebird that I have. "Limited Edition" (400) Everything is as new. Zero wear anywhere. The guitar was basically unused when I bought it. The strings are installed over the saddles and then under the stop bar. When I purchased it "off the 'Bay" the strings were going over the saddles and the stop bar, curling around the stop bar and pointing back towards the bridge saddles underneath the stop bar. Someone told me (or I read) that some owners prefer the latter arrangement because it puts more of the string in contact with the stop bar? I believe that Joe Bonnamassa has his guitars strung in this fashion. The saddle notches seem quite wide, they have been filed, you can see the file marks- but they have all been filed exactly the same, almost as though they are castings (which I believe that they are) that were tweaked slightly by the set up at Nashville. Any tampering by the previous owner would display more variation between the saddles. Under the magnifying glass, you can see that the edges of the notches are a bit blended over and not Sharp edged as you would expect if some had "had a go" They are what I presume is typical of Gibson and a bit "value engineered" I have been describing the acoustic tone. The attack of the note is not right. Curiously, there does not seem to be any problem with the sustain. OK, it doesn't have a gorgeous sweet ringing tone like my Yamaha SA2000, but even through an amp, there is still this lack of sparkle on the attack part of the note envelope. It only seems to affect the unwound strings. Am I just too "Fender-ised"? Puzzling! Thanks guys for your replies. I shall contact John if I cannot figure it out, so thanks Ian for the heads-up.
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Post by mitchfit on Jul 22, 2012 19:16:32 GMT
Stevie,
do the strings sit down more than 1/2 [some prefer less] of their diameter into the bridge or nut slots? same can be caused by switching to smaller diameter strings from OEM set-up.
exceeding this can deaden the strings vibrating ability. same can be cured by knocking of the excess material from the top edge with a file until desired depth is obtained.
other possibilities:
i'm sure you have by now considered that the semi hollow will display better tonal characteristics than a slab will? plugged or unplugged.
not familiar with the firebird, but my "gibsocaster" [S-1 model] stop bar has been countersunk where the ball ends fit in flush on the outboard side with the standard string routing. [straight through] this pulls the "U" shaped notches down flush on the stop bar, giving more contact to the body mounted retaining screws, as it pulls from the center of the bar. perhaps allowing more vibration to pass through to the body?
as far as when amplified, my E2 explorer was very "dead" sounding played through an amp, when i first got it. [used] adjusting the P.U.'s as close as possible to the strings without causing the string to hit them when played hard changed the amplified tone dramatically.
just possibilities to consider?
mitchfit
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Post by Steverb on Jul 22, 2012 20:16:53 GMT
not sure i'm getting the string path description correct. are you saying the string starts into the pick-up side of the stop bar, and then either over the top [or] under the bottom and to the bridge? mitchfit This is a thing that some Les Paul owners do to supposedly maximise sustain and tone. The theory is that if you pass the strings through from the bridge side and then bring them back over the top (a la the 'wraparound' bridge/stop bar combo on LP Juniors etc) then you can screw the stop bar fully down to the body, which is supposed to aid sustain & tone. If you string them conventionally from the back then you can't screw the stopbar right down onto the body without making the break angle too steep. I've never tried it myself so I don't know if it works. Joe Bonamassa apparently swears by it. Steve
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Post by Stevie on Jul 22, 2012 21:08:45 GMT
Mitch, The strings, or at least the unwound strings sit in the same profile slots as the wound ones. They look to be crudely filed using a triangle section file. This means that the unwound strings are very recessed in wide slots. The thing is, the wrap around type combo bridge and tailpiece on, for example, an LP Junior, doesn't have this problem. The one fitted to my Gordon Smith had no problems and it had no slots at all. (I replaced it with a TonePros combo wrap around, but that was more to do with the fact that the GS had the bridge installed as if it had been intended to be a left handed axe, and intonation was dreadful, even by "Junior" standards!) Having no slots at all is for me, somewhat similar to having really wide slots such as the Firebird has. I mentioned the Yamaha because it has the same bridge arrangement as the Firebird, not as a contrast in sounds, well- just the A part of the ADSR. It's a very valid point to make about the different basic sounds though. The pickup height adjustment is also a valid point, due to the neck set angle, the bridge PUP is set really high compared to the neck PUP. With only two height adjusting screws, it is impossible to get the PUP to sit parallel with the strings. (I suppose that's because the springs are too compressed) I didn't think that could've been the problem, not least because the unamplified sound is of principal concern to me. It's not like magnet pull. The message that I'm getting, between the lines, is that the TonePros replacement might well be the answer. Switching the saddles that are like for like doesn't seem to be worth the effort? Certainly the quality of the TonePros on my Gordon Smith leaves nothing to be desired. Cheers guys for all your thoughts and considered input.
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Post by mitchfit on Jul 23, 2012 0:43:49 GMT
Stevie,
one thing i hadn't taken consideration of in my above postings...
perhaps the initial outlay for the aftermarket bridge/bar is a better solution than modding the OEM hardware on a limited run axe anyway. the collecting purists are very unhappy about any changes should you decide to sell it in the future.
as an aside, gibsons with warm-hot 'buckers sound very sweet through the valco 510-1C circuit i sent you...
hope you get it sounding as you want it to, mitchfit
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Post by mitchfit on Jul 23, 2012 0:55:05 GMT
Steverb,
i've heard the same about the break angle of the nut to tuners, also. like you, i haven't tried the string over, or under on the stop bar. the idea seems sound, but i'm not sure how noticeable the difference would be in an electric solid body when amplified. i would guess it more critical in an acoustic, but that is just speculation.
maybe some day i'll try it, just to check.
thanks. mitchfit
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Post by Stevie on Jul 23, 2012 6:33:16 GMT
I know what you mean about not modifying. I would love to fit just the cover plate part of a Vibrola to the Firebird, but it would mean drilling holes....I learned ny lesson about that when I had Chandler Guitars / Roger Giffin machine down the fret board part of my 1973 maple neck Strat and lay on an ebony board. "it's only a '70s Strat after all...." Excellent workmanship and (ebony boards) very rare back in the early 1980s but.... Thanks Mitch.
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Post by Stevie on Aug 11, 2012 23:29:06 GMT
Well, I received a Tonepros "Nashville" style T-O-M today and slipped it under the loosened off strings. It was advertised as having "pre-slotted" saddles. It has what can only be described as scratches where the strings traverse the saddles. Impatience compelled me to install it with no attempt being made to cut correct slots where these ultra shallow tram lines are. I have noticed an immediate and vast improvement, not only in the note envelope, but also in the tuning stability. I was critical of the machine heads. Now I have to concede that they do the job nicely, even if the gears do feel like rolling a thrupenny bit across the playground, so it all must have been due to the original bridge. Bonus! I did contact Gibson to try to clarify which type of T-O-M was fitted to this model and even quoted the serial number of this "Guitar Of The Week #12" from 2007. Not a dicky bird. They should be sent on the MM / Busker NVQ! (A vernier provided the answer that I needed) Model T3BP at £27 from the good ol' USA. and in (for myself) a preferable nickel finish. Thanks to Mitch, Ian and TT.
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Post by mitchfit on Aug 12, 2012 15:45:55 GMT
Stevie,
i love happy endings!
mitchfit
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Post by Stevie on Dec 11, 2019 10:16:08 GMT
Sometime in the last 12 months and after a number of years mulling over the prices, I replaced the stop bar tail piece with an aluminium/inum one- a cheap no-name example but with nickel plating. Then I swapped out the pickup mounting rings and the mini humbucker covers with nickel plated replacements. That was an "interesting" exercise with the covers to say the least! Although it's subjective, I feel it is now how it should have left the factory.
I love nickel plating me!
However, the setup was appalling. I have tweaked it yet it is not that much better. A pity John Alderson is not a bit closer to me because I would cheerfully pay him to sort it out for me. I would quite like to swap out the machine heads for some Kluson nickel plated variants too, but they are approaching £200 a set so that'll have to wait. There is an incentive that the Klusons might just be a little better engineered than the Gibson excuses? No I thought not.
On a positive note (natch) it now sounds great both acoustically and amplified. It has an indefinable "springy" sound quality as Tokai would have it, and I am at a loss to explain this given the very rigid build. I would like to have the body edges rounded off just a bit more, but it would end up being like Trigger's Broom!
Marmite maybe, but a Firebird is a statement and you do step up to the plate with one over your shoulder. Chester Burnett toted a 'bird from time to time but of course he could literally carry one off, and that's good enough for me!
e&oe ...
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