Earliest Radiused Fretboards?

[Deleted]

Hello Michael--history question. What year did National first use a radius on the fretboards of their guitars? This home.provide.net/~cfh/national.html seems to say there weren't any til late 34 (Duolians). Thing is, my buddy and I have early Duo's. Mine is C523X, which should be a '31, his is C583X, likely a '32. His has a fertboard with a radius. The ebonized maple is a consistent solid dark color but it has a radius with old frets--my buddy thinks they are original but I don't know. Could it be a factory radiused board this early, or did someone refret and radius the board and re-stain it to darken the lighter maple which would have been exposed during the radius-shaping? The stain seems to be a consistent color so I don't know if this is a possible answer... Your thoughts?

[steadyrollinman]

I have a 1933 style O with a radius fretboard.


Chris

[colinbrooks]

I have a 1931 Style ll Tricone Hawaiian which for some reason has a radiused fretboard! The guitar is near mint so I have no doubt that this fretboard is original, but a strange choice for a sqare necked guitar.

[pascal]

... I heard the real reason was to prevent the fretboard (ebony or stained maple) from twisting.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Ifotremolo,

C523X and C583X >you are correct about one, but not about the other. I think they are both 193X National Duolians

The point you have raised is interesting because I think it highlights what I keep banging on about regarding the approach to selling and restoring Nationals by many of the so-called most notable dealers and repairers over the past 5 to 10 years. The amount of untouched original National resonator instruments around today is a fraction of what was around 15 years ago. When I first started collecting and playing Nationals they were all original and most were untouched. In ten years from now original untouched Nationals will be even rarer. History will not thank these people for their invasive approach. Just look at what the Victorians did to Tutankhamun and his burial place. At the time they too believed they were doing the right thing.

Back in the 1920s and 30s in National & Dobro's heyday, there were various materials used to make fretboards; at one end of the scale there was ebony and at the other end of the scale there was compressed cardboard. In between those two extremes there were all sorts of woods and compounds used to make fretboards. Many of the materials with elaborate names are just compressed cardboard and sawdust & glue compounds. 'Ebonized' sounds very professional, but it does not have anything to do with ebony, apart from its colour.

I am not able to put an exact date on the use of radius fretboards, as with most things 'National & Dobro' there will always be exceptions here and there. However I do agree that once 14 fret guitars were being produced, they were mostly, if not totally, using radius fretboards. This is something that I have been involved in with my own MM brand guitars, and I agree that the radius fretboards are stronger and help keep the longer 14 fret necks and fretboards straight. Especially if there is no truss rod. Also, radius fretboards, using low-tech manual mass-production methods, are easier to work with.

It is not impossible, but in my opinion it is highly unlikely that your two 193X Duolians were factory fitted with radius fretboards. I don't think I have ever seen one, and I have seen quite a few Duolians. A good luthier with a feel and passion for originality would be able to replace a fretboard on a Duolian and it would for all intents and purposes look original.

I am sorry to have been a little sarcastic about your use of Xs, but if it wasn't for the gathering of serial numbers of Nationals by such people as Mark Makin, Bob Brozman, George Gruhn and Walter Carter, we 'you' would not have the knowledge that we have about the history of these wonderful guitars. It is the gathering of serial numbers and placing them in chronological order that has been one of the main factors used to assemble the history of National guitars.

I believe that the serial number on a guitar is the opposite to a PIN number on a credit card. For example; my own MM Lightning is MML 0001 08. If that guitar gets stolen or lost, it is identifiable by its serial number. That serial number is known by my friends and by many members of this forum. If all that is known of Michael Messer's Lightning is that its number is MML 000X 08, then it could be any one of nine MM Lightnings out there. So my point about PIN numbers is that with a credit card the secrecy of its PIN number is the owner's security, whereas with a guitar it is the opposite; the more people that know a guitar's serial number, the less likely it is to disappear. I do not believe there is anything to be gained by retaining the last digit of a guitar's serial number.

RANT OVER!!!! ;D

>1932

I hope that helps shed some light on your question.

Keep in touch,



Shine On
Michael.

[Mark Makin]

Michael, you've struck a nerve with me. This has become an increasing practice prevalent amongst sellers on ebay.. By keeping one or two numbers secret ,they keep a certain 'personal advantage' about the instrument. Do they in some way feel that we can gain access or potentially remove their precious instrument from their clutches. How on earth would anybody know where to find the instrument using that 'extra special' piece of information - a COMPLETE serial number!

As you correctly suggest, Myself and Bob Brozman spent over 5 years struggling with lists and sequences of numbers to produce what everybody else now relies on - the serial number list that Bob finalised in his book. All the people out there who revel in a certain amount of historical knowledge to place their treasured National in time and space can do it because of the existence of that list!
'Provide.net', 'George Gruhn', 'Notecannons', 'NRP', 'Fine Resophonics', 'Amistar'. 'Beltona' and just about every author and magazine article across the world, uses THAT list.

Lenny at Vintage Nationals is trying to add his own little slice of information gathering with his website datbase - are you all going to hide numbers from him too!

The production of the list would have been completely impossible if people had developed this secretive and elitist practice 20 years ago when it was all being compiled. All the contributors in the list do not feel that their instruments are compromised by appearing in it. There are no addresses given away.
At this stage, so many years later, and with so many instruments now "numerically recorded" - the discovery of 2 more Duolians with secret numbers will not cause either myself or Bob Brozman any sleepless nights - however, we regularly see details of extremely important custom or rare instruments where this practice is used. Can you imagine our frustration at realising we cannot place it in the important and landmark position that it should have in its own history.

It isn't a 'perfect' list by any means, but considering that it concerns events that happened nearly 90 years ago - there is no one to ask! The more numbers we get, the better the information becomes. It is exactly like a digital photograph. The more pixels - the better the image. We STILL depend on collecting these numbers to improve the information available.

I have mentioned before, on other threads, - if it was Martin or Gibson we were concerned about, the information has never been been lost or doubted. Your Martin can be dated to a specific morning in 1838! This list is ALL we National lovers have.

And while I'm in a pedantic mood - C523X and C583X are BOTH made in 1932! (although the rest of the world will never know of their existence)

MY RANT'S OVER TOO!

[steadyrollinman]

Michael/ Mark,

Based on your "rants" should owners of vintage nationals, who's serial numbers are definable from BB's book, but not literally printed in these lists, let you guys or BB know of the existence of these instruments and their serial numbers?

Chris

[lewiscohen]

Don't people keep back digits to deny fraudsters authentic serial numbers to create spoof ebay auctions with? It may be misguided, but I think that at least some people do it because they think they're protecting their fellow guitar lovers from getting ripped off.

[gouranga]

More rants please......
More info....

I thank both Michael and Mark for all their work in the field of these great guitars. Thank you to all others who have also made their history more clearer for everyone... The X factor gets the stick again. Nice one guys.

Best wishes to all.

Gouranga

[Mark Makin]

Hello Chris
The main advantage of continued logging of serial numbers is that it explains the sequencing of Nationals production. With few numbers we can only guess at the years they were made, when the neck changed from 12 frets to 14 frets, when ribs appeared on the coverplate, when the spirals on cones change - in fact any specific can be pinned down when we have the amount of numbers.
As I said earlier, when we compiled the list, there was no access to any factory information that would have made life easy. Production totals, board meeting minutes, - all we had to go on was what turned up in music shops or in car boot sales, - the instruments themselves.
If we are ever to understand production totals (people ask me about this all the time) we need to know the number range in any given series - where it begins, where it stops.
Most of the information in the list consists of peoples numbers ranged against known facts - what date a patent number was issued. This can be found out at the patent office. If C3200 has patent pending on it and C3201 has a patent number we can tell exactly when it was made.

Lewis
I am sure we can develop paranoias about every sphere of life that carries a number. I suspect the attitude to these guitar numbers
is based on the amount of dealings with credit cards that we all make. "card number XXX XXXXX 5512 etc... we're all used to this.
I still refer you back to the many hundreds of people who DON'T do this and the many hundreds in the original list who gave up their information so that Bob and I could start the research on these things.
Just to give you an indication of the power of the Internet - When I passed on my numbers to Bob and we combined them with those from Dennis at Gruhns - the list in the book, 17 years ago, is a collection of around 1500 numbers. As a result of the Internet, the list is more than double that now.

[snakehips]

Hi there !
I thought the use of X was selling on ebay. A seller giving loads of good pictures and the serial no. could have the pics and serial no. "stolen" for use by a scammer, some time in the future.
Put the guitar on ebay and don't mention the serial no. Some innocent guy emails the bogus seller asking about the serial number (eg. to date the guitar) and the bogus guy says "oh sure, its C6345" and instantly the innocent potential buyer thinks this guy is a real seller.
By not giving the full serial no., the original seller is protecting future would-be scammers.
I would sell one of mine and not release the full serial no., BUT if someone like Bob Brozman or Mark Makin emailed me asking for the serial no. I'd freely give it.

Even more covert than that, someone like myself shows off a recent purchase on the MM forum, showing pictures and the full serial no.
Before you know it, some arse-wipe scammer will be "selling" that not-for-sale guitar on ebay or elsewhere, having copied those pictures and serial no. from the MM site.

[wolvoboy]

It can also work to protect you,if you see a stolen guitar on ebay or elswhere and recognise the serial number,or even if you see pictures of your guitars on ebay knowing that it is a scam you can inform everyone of it.
Mark are you and Bob Brozman still collecting serial numbers if so email me for mine.if you want it
wolvoboy

[Michael Messer]

Here is a pic of a National Duolian cardboard fretboard



Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

Hey..nice pic of Max Miller!!!..now I wonder whatever happened to his National, does anybody know?.....

Cardboard fretboards...just the the sort of left field idea for my cigar box guitars!!! Mind you, that must be some seriously compressed cardboard to be able to slot and set-in frets. I've already made guitars using cardboard cigarboxes...

[Mark Makin]

Hi John
Max Millers guitar - !"!"!"SERIAL NUMBER C9716!"!"!" is owned by Roy Hudd. Roy bought it from Max's brother in the mid 1960s for £100. It still has his set list on the side.

These cardboard fretboards are not actually as horrific as they appear in this picture. The break down of the resin shows the nature of its layered construction. This is actually a type of Bakelite. Bakelite was available in many different forms. The more usual type has the fibres in a 'loose' form - paper, linen, or sawdust being the base and bonded with a phenolic/formaldehyde compound resin. The fingerboards on these guitars seem to have been made using a flat sheet principle - rather like a book of pages soaked in resin! Odd eh!