Action on my National

[alisterhrae]

I urgently need to reduce the action on My National. I play lots of Jug Band era tunes, lots of fast jazz with lots of chord changes. No slide (sorry)
The guitar has a stock action and it is quite simply destroying my left hand.
I have checked out Little Brothers web site, but I cant seem to find information on what radius one should cut down to on the saddle. LB's site is mainly about lifting the action. Also, exactly what file should be used to cut the slots? Different String guage different file?
Do the strings need to 'sit in' the slots? Can any of you fellow Reso' pickers, please point me in the direction of other web sites with useful info?
Have any of you tried the Resobridge S Mk III ?
Oh how I wish Dave King was closer!

Thanks, Alister

[melp]

Alister,

Are we talking about a original National, like 1930's , or a later copy? Also does it have a truss rod?

Cheers

Mel

[snakehips]

Hi there !

How is it destroying your hand ?
Perhaps you need to practice more, or use a lighter guage of strings, for now, until you build up more strength in your hands

As for guitar set-up, I think you need to work out exactly what you are after.
Go into a guitar shop and play lots of different guitars - until you find one you find comfortable to play.
Ask the shop guys if you can get measurements of the string spacing, length between 1st and 6th string, AND width of neck. Look at the fret ends - how are the shaped ? Are they quite squared off at the end or is there a bevelled section. A wide bevelled area on each end of the frets means narrower playing area overall, for the 6 strings, for any given NECK width.
Also, how close to the edge of the neck (or the start of the fret bevelling away) are the 1st+6th strings
Find a guitar you like the dimensions of and THEN take those dimensions to a reputable repairer/luthier. Then they will know what you want and thus what to give you. Everyone has their own preferences on set-ups - you can't expect to take one look at you and your destroyed hands and know exactly what you need !

Perhaps consider a different guitar with smaller/narrower/thinner neck ?

[Deleted]

The first thing I would recommend is try using a lighter string gauge providing the action isn't to high.
Believe it or not I find my Style O is louder with 12s than 13s and of coarse a lot easier to play. I've also used 11s but I find them a bit to light for slide.
There is a lot of information on lowering the action of biscuit bridges on the net. Stew Macks website is particularly useful.
When I got my Nat the action was to low for slide so I had to buy a new biscuit bridge and start from scratch filing the slots etc.
You need to read a lot of info but it is out there on the net and surprisingly easy to do if you are a bit of a handyman.

[alisterhrae]

Thanks for the feedback guys, It's a 2007 M2 National, Recently put a National hotplate in it. I have tweaked the truss rod to take a bit of relief out of it.
This guitar gets played a lot with our band and it's since playing lots of fast jazz numbers that rsi has come back to haunt me. I have had carpal tunnel surgery six years ago, and it looks like my left hand is going again. I don't want to loose the sound of the National its integral to 'our sound' I have many other acoustics I can use but the 'sound' would go.
I'm using mediums at the moment, but the action is high. I let Tommy Emmanuel play it one night and he handed it back saying "that's impossible man!"
I was speaking to the guitarist out of the Wiyos, and he had his action dropped a lot to speed up his finger picking and to hammer out lots of closed chords. He was having exactly the same problem as I am.
Which site on the web is the best for info on dropping the action at the saddle?
I'm a wee bit concerned about getting the radius at the saddle correct, and exactly what width of slot I should cut? Also should the string always sit 'in' the slot or can it sit 'on top' of the saddle? I have changed saddles on many 'normal' acoustics, I guess I'm maybe getting a wee bit paranoid about my National.
Canny practice any more Snakehips, I'm playing every hour the big man sends when I'm not at work! I play with 4 different bands. Hey do you know Garry Martin?

Thanks for your help.

Alister

[alisterhrae]

Think I need to buy a set of nut/saddle files from Stew Mac? I guess that would be the best option for cutting the slots deeper? Do any of you know somewhere in the UK where you can purchase similar to those on Stew Mac's site?

Cheers, A

[Michael Messer]

Just go direct to Stewmac for those things.

Shine On
Michael

[snakehips]

Hi Alisterhrae !

Yes, I know Gary Martin - I've gigged with him on+off for about 10 years, as a Trio.
He's back playing in a full band set-up, with John Bruce on guitar (original lead guitarist from Blues'n'Trouble).
Here's Gary playing harp with me (on electric) and my other bandmate Prof Scratchy (Allan Jones) about 4 or 5 years ago, at the Burnley Blues Festival :

[Deleted]

Proper slot files are very expensive if you are only going to use them once.
You can buy little sets of files for cleaning the tips of welding torches very cheaply and many people have used them for bridge work.
I got a set of small files from a model shop for about $10. I find them useful for a number of jobs around the house as well as bridge slot filing.
You shouldn't need a new bidge if you simply want to lower the action.
Buy a decent 6inch steel ruler to measure the string height at the 12th fret and just deepen the slots slowly with a few sweeps of the file and lower each string by the same amount.
It's actually quite easy if you are gentle and careful.
Bridges are made of very hard wood so they don't file down to quickly.

[Stevie]

Search eBay for <Norman guitar nut files>
I've had a set for about 18 months and find them very usable. Precisely made with full radius "teeth" and inexpensive compared with Stewmac.

[melp]

Hi Alister,

Ok so its a NRP with a truss rod, that's fine, I asked as I have learned, by reading this forum, that a original vintage National would/could be a different prospect.

First, the health warning, I am - in no way - an expert, pretty much on anything. All I can share is what I have done, and what happened.

I have done setup's on three resonators, basically, following the instructions on littlebrother blues, along with some help from friends on this forum.

1/ What is the current setup? I measured the height from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string at the 12th fret, with a capo on the first fret.

2/ On all mine I replaced the existing biscuit and saddle with a NRP replacement maple one, they are only about £10 (I got mine from Dave King) I got a couple, in case I made a mistake.

3/ I did not get the expensive purpose made files, but used a junior hacksaw blade (the thinest blade I could find, I also had a fret saw, but it was too fine) to start the slots, then used a set of cheap micro files for the thicker strings. You can also use a string to "floss" the initial slot to fit the string.

If I were you I would estimate how much of a change you think you need to make at the saddle, by looking at the height at the 12th fret. To me, the issue here, is it large? I mean several mm.

You may need to change the truss rod, especially if making a large change at the saddle, but as you have already done this then it should not be a problem for you.

I was going for just a setup of 3mm on the 6th string, and 2.5mm on the 1st. You may be looking at something lower than this?

A change in string gauge, as previously suggested, may be a good thing to try. I am not exactly clear the implications of your problem. Is it the tension needed to press down a string between a fret, or is it the height of the string, irrespective of the gauge?

If its tension related, which I would guess in some way it is, then using Newtone strings will help, they come to pitch at lower tension.

If you need to make a largish change at the saddle then, as far as I know, you may need to watch the break angle from the tailpiece - if the string path is too "flat" then the cone may not work properly.

Not sure if its a general rule, but when fitting a NRP hot rod cone on my Busker Canon I was advised, by someone who knows, not to go lower than 5mm of saddle above the top surface of the biscuit.

If you have got to change it, which it sounds like you have, then I would get a couple of biscuits, get a cheap set of files and have a go!

good luck

Mel

[alisterhrae]

Thanks for all the info, sent off for a few bicuits and a set of files-anything might happen now!

Alister

[rickS]

If you want to lessen the string tension without sacrificing too much tone, you could try Martin 'Light-Medium' ( 12.5 - 55 ) gauge strings - the FX series are even lower tension, they won't work for every guitar, but my Republic-with-Hotrod just loves'em, & they're near as easy to play as Lights..