Set-up advice for bottleneck style

[Deleted]

Hello,
I have a roundneck Dobro Houndog. These come set-up for lapstyle, and I want to set it up for piedmont style (some slide, some finger-picking). I have the action much lower than the thing came, and can sufficiently (but not effortlessly) fret the notes in the lower five or six frets. I am having difficulty playing fully barred (with the slide) chords because the nut and saddle of this instrument are radiused: should I convert to a flatter nut and saddle or is there something wrong with how I play slide (please tell me the truth, but be nice)?
Poorboyslim

[percythewonderant]

Do you have a radiused bottleneck? (Seriously it will make a difference). On guitars with a radiused finger board and a lower action, (that is, not high), I have used a heavy brass radiused 'Latch Lake' bottleneck for years for that very reason. Most wine bottles will have a nice curve too!

[Deleted]

That is definitely a good idea. Most of my slides are either straight pipes or homemade glass. I will look at some of the more radiused ones tonight. Might be able to cut off a fat tire bottle. Thanks

[Michael Messer]

Hi poorboyslim,

Welcome to our forum.

Percy is correct about Latch Lake slides and it is one approach. Personally, I would set the string height and neck relief to how you like it (it cannot really be flat on a radius fretboard) and work with a straight slide. You are not doing anything wrong, you are going through the learning process.

Keep in touch and Shine On
Michael

[percythewonderant]

It always takes awhile to develop a comfortable way of playing and of course it is very personal to the player

I began playing slide on a 'normal' flat top acoustic which had a radiused board and low action, with a real bottleneck, (Mateuse Rose), which was gently curved. As a result it is what I got used to. When the strings are light, the action a little low and the fingerboard radiused a little curve is useful.

I find it difficult to get the tone I want from a curved slide on a flat board. I can get the notes but, to me, they just don't feel or sound right!

We spend a lot of time looking for a balance of those elusive qualities of string height, volume, tone, projection and playability. That's why I have just received a beautiful new flat sided slide from Diamond Bottlenecks as related in the thread 'My New Slide' that I posted a couple of days ago.

I have to admit that if it meant that I could play like Blind Boy Fuller' I'd even buy a flat cap! But, sadly, we cant ask him what his action was or what slide he used. But even if I knew, it might be entirely wrong for me. For piedmont style I guess the guy to talk to would be 'Bowling Green John Cephus' who I believe is still around playing with Phil Wiggins.

Cheers Perce

[percythewonderant]

John Cephas explains-



.
Sorry to say I just found an obituary for John Cephus

www.co.caroline.va.us/cephas.html

'So it goes' Perce

[Deleted]

How often do you need to play all six strings with the slide? I'm just wondering if you are worrying about something unnecesarily. Players like Kevin Brown actually prefer a more radiused set-up to make going for the middle strings with the slide a bit easier and cleaner. I used to flail away with all six strings covered with the slide, but very very rarely do that these days. It's common for novice players to have at all 6 strings at once, but as I've developed my playing, it's a technique I rarely use nowadays.

To get a reality check on your playing, I heartily recommend attending a workshop or lessons. I've done workshops with Michael, Catfish Keith, Steve James, Kevin Brown, Bryn Hawarth and Jim Crawford...it's the best time and money you'll ever spent on trying to improve your technique. Checkout when these guys are touring (Catfish is in the UK right now) to see if there are any workshops near you, or alternatively get a bunch of players together and arrange one yourself (I did this with MM).

[percythewonderant]

Well Poorboy,

It may look as if you have been stitched up by Chicken Bone and myself but if you want to attend a workshop featuring MM, his very self, I am in the process of arranging one for the 23rd of January.

Michael has told me that he is available and, between my last post and now, I have finally booked a function room in which to hold a general get together, workshop, and concert for a hundred or so lucky forum members.

It will be held in The Red Lion, Atherstone in North Warwickshire, on the A5 between the M6 M1 M42, so it isn't hard to get to.
National Express will take you there from London £26 for There is a rail super saver return ticket for only £15 to Atherstone Station.

The Red Lion has the usual compliment of bars and a good restaurant. They also have 37 rooms available and are offering a discount to anyone who chooses to attend the do, which will work out at £49 per single occupancy with B&B.

Time to get excited again.

I can't tell you yet how much this fabulous event will cost but I will keep the enrollment price as close to cost as possible. The details will be ironed out soon but if you are interested please get in touch.

I will make a more formal announcement when I know more.

All suggestions gratefully received

Cheers Percy

[stevie]

Hi, I have a similar problem with my MM Lightning. Set up for picking and slide, it plays like a dream, until I play bar chords! I have to apply vice like pressure with my finger, some of the notes ring out some sound muted probably due to unequal pressure under my finger. Michael mentions in this post Neck relief ? how do you alter that and would it help. regards to all. Stevie

[steverino]

I have found that many resonators have the slots in the nut cut unnecessarily high. What I do is to deepen them until the .014" blade of an automotive type feeler gauge just fits between the underside of the string and the top of the first fret. This makes chording on the first few frets much easier but doesn't seem to cause any harm when using the slide.

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I'd view Steverino's post with a bit of caution (please, no disrespect intended) - because deepening the slots on the nut can result in changes you might not want and have no option but to have a new nut fitted and set up, by an expert. (I've set up many a new biscuit bridge on reso guitars - vintage and copies) and I'm quite confident to do quite a good job - BUT - I find getting a nut just right is far more difficult as I find it so much easier to mess up.

If you mess a nut up and have to start again, you have to cut the nut to length and do a heck of a lot of shaping and polishing to the rest of the surface to make it look nice.

The thing with cutting slots deeper in a nut is that it takes very few strokes of a fret file to go from too high to "oh hell, what have I done !".
If you cut down to where fretting is really easy down by the nut, then yes, you might not affect using a slide much - on MOST of the neck - BUT it gets difficult to get a clean sound, IMHO, in the first 5 frets (where the action is lower to start with (compared to the 12th fret).

Me personally, I want a set-up good for slide AND fingerstyle.
It can be difficult to get absolutely as I'd like for both scenarios - so I choose to have it slightly higher for slide and have just learnt to play on a slightly higher action for chording/fretting - it strengthens the fingers anyway. I'd rather that than a crap slide sound that buzzes the strings against the frets. Either that or have two guitars - one set up for slide, and one for fingerstyle.

Using a feeler gauge should work in most cases - so go ahead - BUT be careful when cutting the slots deeper - only do one short stroke with the nut file - then replace the string, bring up to pitch and test thoroughly before making more adjustments.
If the neck has quite a bow to it, you may find you are having to cut the slots quite a bit deeper - then you will find that deepening the slots wasn't the answer - you need to straighten the neck. Do that THEN you find the nut slots are too deep ! Doh !!! Start over again !!!!!!

[percythewonderant]

Snakehips is bang on the money there. That end of the neck is tricky. It is also really difficult to get it back to the way it was before you started even with a new nut. Better to keep the one you have for safetys sake and make a new one that you lower. It can also cause very annoying tuning problems if the nut pinches the strings.

Be very careful if you ever try to move a nut that is glued in place. Make sure that the nut is completely detatched from the fingerboard before you attempt to move it. Don't just lever it up! It is surprisingly easy to also slightly lift the end of the fingerboard. The movement may be very small and still leave hideous cosmetic results to your lacquer along the join between the neck and fingerboard. Depending on the finish It can be hard/impossible to get it put right without having the whole neck refinished.

You only have to make a tiny movement easing the nut to destroy the looks and resale value of an instrument.

(I was that soldier),

Perce

[steverino]

Okay fellas, I hear your cautions and agree to a point. I have been shaping and installing bone nuts for a while now, so I do not fear the dreaded deep slot. Also, I have found that a bit of superglue mixed with bone dust will fix the occasional booboo.

This whole subject of set up and working on one's own instruments is a big one, and of course it is possible to wade into the deep end and get into trouble. The simple answer would be "Don't touch it; refer to qualified service personnel." I have found that diving in and working on my guitars is rewarding in many ways, and that spending a couple hundred bucks on nut files and other tools has been well worthwhile.

One pet peeve of mine is unreasonably high nut slots. How many millions of kids have attempted to learn guitar on a "starter" instrument, and given up because the darn thing was near impossible to play? It certainly saves on factory labor to leave everything high, but many instruments are never set up correctly. Some very old instruments out there give evidence of this. Okay, off my soapbox!

[snakehips]

Hi again !

Steverino ! I Completely agree with you on how annoying it is that many cheap guitars have high nut slots - especially beginners guitars. Parents buy "little Johnny" a "nice" guitar (ie. cheap and cheerful) for their son to delight them and impress family and friends about how wonderful THEY are to have a son that can play a musical instrument. THEN they give the kid mega hassle for not playing it enough to get to a standard good enough to impress people for them.
However, we know the kid gave up BECAUSE the cheap piece of crap was unplayable !

My 13 yr old niece wanted to play and have lessons for Spanish/Classical guitar. I told my sister that I insisted on helping her daughter chose a good playing guitar. Made her pay nearly 50% more than she was planning to spend, for a better guitar - and that was with a heavy discount from the guy I know in the guitar shop.

At least she has a fighting chance to learn !
Don't think she wants to learn any blues though - wants to play Coldplay !
No accounting for taste ! I'll get her around to blues in good time.

[stevie]

Thanks Steverino, Percy, Snakehips, This is an interesting discussion! each of you have given me valid advice. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but whatever I do I will approach with caution! regards Stevie