PICKUP THE WORLD PICKUPS

[Deleted]

These are regularly for sale on Ebay at a good price and easy to install.
Does anyone have any experience with them.
I like the idea of not glueing anything to the cone.

[robn]

Hi Bluebottle,

I've not tried the Pick up the World products. So here are a few observations on peizo pick-ups in general.

Peizo pick-ups are very unruley beasts. The way they are attached to an instrument and where they are attached to an instrument is cruicial to performance. Eg the tape you use to fix them, the amount of downpressure you can provide for the pick up, the angle and exact location all have a HUGE effect on the sound they produce. It is very, very difficult to get a good sound from them (or you may be lucky with your first mounting attempt ). Those that are under some pressure seem to work better (which is why undersaddle peizos work OK on acoustic guitars). Anything that is "stick on" will be far more difficult to set up. I think that the Highlander is so well rated for biscuit bridge guitars for two reasons - firstly it is installed under pressure into a biscuit bridge groove and secondly it has a lot of on-board electric wizzardry to calm the pick up.

A stick on peizo strip on the biscuit/bridge "should" work. But in practice it is just so difficult to mount and EQ such a pick-up to get optimal sound quality that you have to seriously weigh up any advantages (if there are any for your application?) over simply using a mic'.

Robin

[gouranga]

Thanks for that Robin.
I am slowly but surely getting put off the pick -up idea.

regards

Gouranga

[Deleted]

Thanks Rob.
By this do I take it one of the lace single coil or humbucker pickups would be a better bet?

[Deleted]

Bluebottle

I have a single coil Lace Sensor pickup fitted to my Busker Cannon. Robin of Busker did the job. The output volume is very low and a boost is needed, such as a floor pedal, to get the volume up to a more normal level. But the sound it gives is very natural. I've played it through various amps and PA systems and there is nothing 'electric' about the amplified sound at all.

An SM57 is not any better, but it is cheaper if you can use it.

[pete1951]

Peizos that stick on can be made to work on a biscuit by the use of a strip of spring steel . With the pickup behind the bridge and the strip going from under the tail-p. [maybe covered in felt to stop rattles or scratches] to press on the peizo. This give you some output to work with, it then needs agood preamp to make it sound less peizoish, but some might find it just what they want [ it is a cheap why if you already have a preamp.]

[bluesdude]

Hi I had one on a old Duolian,it didn't work out for me,
if your attack is very percussive it picks up every little
pick scrape,the new Shatten pickup is better in that respect,

good luck Kenny,

[robn]

Jul 1, 2009 4:05:14 GMT @bluebottle said:

Thanks Rob.
By this do I take it one of the lace single coil or humbucker pickups would be a better bet?

Hi bluebottle,

The Lace Dobro Sensor single coil and, in particular, the Lace Ultra Slimline Acoustic Sensor are OK pick-ups for PB string balance. The single coil is a little noisy, as you would expect of a single coil - so watch your earths. The USA sensor is a lot smoother and very quite. Both give a "mag" sound.

Unfortunately, even the USA sensor is a little too tall for most biscuit bridge and tricone guitars (7mm) and it "frets out" above the 15th fret on most of the guitars I have tried it on (not a problem if you just play slide). A 5mm version with a PB string balance would be pretty much perfect for those who have to "plug in" because of the volume they play at - or for those occasions where plugging in is advantageous.

I do think that volume at some events is the real issue - in most cases, if you bring everything down a little then mic'ing becomes a very practical option.

I ran the sound system for a small music festival a couple of weeks ago and used about 7 mic's for a pub session on the Friday night and 10 or 12 for the village hall stage on the Saturday. None of the musicians plugged anything into the p/a. We had solo artists, duets and four, five and six piece bluegrass bands. I had loads of comments about how great the sound was for the event. To be honest, it was really easy to balance the desk and get perfect clean sound as I had stacks of headroom left on a 600 watt p/a. It was just a matter of getting the vocals right and then gradually lifting the instruments in underneath the voices. I set the vocals so that from the middle to the back of the venue it was like listening to someone singing in your living room. It was then very easy to bring the instruments up to the right level for the venue simply by mic'ing them, (acoustic guitars, reso guitars, upright bass, fiddles, banjos, dulcimer, harps, mandolins etc). I did the same with a "plug in" band at a wedding recently (set the vocals first to a comfortable level and then lifted the instruments underneath) and it seemed to be good ploy to get the right sound for any particular room size. I'm not a qualified sound guy so I can't vouch for the legitimacy of this approach to handling a p/a at venues but it seems to work well. And my kayak racing partner for many years was a professional sound man for the BBC, so I guess I have picked up a few tips along the way

Robin

[steverino]

Robin, can we clone you and distribute these sound men everywhere? Your approach is so refreshing in a world that has gone mad with absurdly high, damaging sound levels. I would say that you are a superbly qualified sound guy. It is most of the currently practicing ones that need to go.

I have a 1930 book that discusses the proper use of a public address system. It is stated that the audience should not be made aware of the loudspeakers, but that the levels should be elevated just enough to ensure intelligibility for the entire audience.

[Deleted]

Personally, I like to keep sound levels as low as possible, consistent with allowing people at the back of the room to hear what's going on. When dealing with essentially acoustic instruments, a PA should be used as 'sound reinforcement' rather than amplification for the sake of it. Generally if a musician asks for his instrument to be turned up, I tend to pull the vocals channel down in the mix and if necessary lift the master volume to compensate. Using a microphone rather than plugging in an instrument equipped with a pickup will almost always give a superior sound..unfortunately these days many sound men just assume that acoustic guitar needs to be plugged in..and of course, it's no longer an acoustic guitar then..for some reason they seem to think its so old hat and uncool to mic an instrument..gawd help us.

[steverino]

I couldn't agree more, CJ. A few years ago I attended an event sponsored by the NAMM music trade show out here in southern California. It was billed as the "Acoustic Cafe" and was held in a large hotel ballroom. Though the instruments were acoustic, the sound system was huge. The levels were some of the loudest I've ever endured, almost unbearable even with foam earplugs in tight. Nuts!

As a piano technician I'm always fighting the good fight for instrumental timbre as well. In pop orchestral situations, most often the sound personnel are not concerned with an accurate piano sound. No, they just want it to "cut through" the mix, so they put the mics inches from where the hammers hit the strings and EQ up the top end. This can make a 9' piano sound like a 5', but it is usually out of my hands.

[Bill Stig]

As an EX sound engineer I can understand to some extent the reason sound engineers put the levels too high. A soundy can't wear ear plugs - hearing loss is an occupational hazard. That's one of the main reason I refuse to do sound anymore - mixing for 15 under 18 rock bands in a breeze block walled theatre every month doesn't help with my tinitus and judgement of sound levels.
There seems to be a culture in this country, more than in Europe, that loud sound is good sound. In France I've encountered problems where an un miced acoustic drum kit was too loud for the engineer in a rock venue, resulting in us having to cut the set short.
It's also true that sound engineers don't like to use mics on acoustic instruments. I've never had that fear, but a while ago, I had 2 engineers that I had originally trained, break into a cold sweat when I said I wanted to use a mic on my guitar. I couldn't believe the grumbling about the possible feedback. In the end there was no problem.

[robn]

I've just got back from the North Wales Bluegrass Festival. A bloody excellent weekend - more like a party for 100s of musicians than a festival ;D The Carter Brothers headlined and then, like all the other acts, sat around the campsite jamming until 0400 I've never been in the company of so many excellent musicians, young an old, who just wanted to play and play. We got a slot on the marquee stage ourselves on Saturday afternoon - the set went well, so hopefully we'll move up the bill next year

Anyway - back to topic (ish).

A couple of bands were pretty slick at single mic'ing. No, not one mic per instrument or voice but just one mic for a complete 5 piece band including close harmony vocals The "trick" is not to have any monitors but to stand close enough together to be able to hear each other - I mean really close together. That way you can lift the volume on the single mic' with less chance of feedback. Then the fun begins as you rotate to the front of the huddle to play your lead or sing - so the band is in constant motion throughout a number. I watched one band (the New Essex Bluegrass Band www.newessexbluegrass.homecall.co.uk/index.htm - there is a section on their website about single mic technique) play their set at a really good sound level for a large auditorium using just a single AT4033a for the whole band (acoustic bass, mandolin, banjo, acoustic guitar, fiddle). Their sound was really well balanced because the band balanced themselves by moving within the mic's field. They were also bloody tight (and pretty fast!). Now I've seen this system successfully used at a concert I'm definitely up for having a go with our band. The band must listen to each other and really work as one unit for this technique to be effective - but if you get it right the whole ambiance of collective musicianship is fantastic

Robin

[lewiscohen]

The bluegrass crowd are masters of that. I believe they have "single mic" contests in the US.

I've done a couple of gigs now standing a couple of feet back from a single large diaphragm condenser mic (solo rather than band context) and I have to say I'm totally sold on the idea. The first was a small pub with my little stagepas PA and the second was a large outdoor event with a big festival type PA. The simplicity and freedom of movement is great, and you can play standing up without having to plug in or have to try to keep your guitar pointed towards a mic.

You do lose the ability to do the treble and bass thing by moving a resonator in relation to a close mic, but I tend not to do too much of that anyway.

I fancy trying the same approach with a ribbon mic next - they have excellent sound rejection from below so it might even allow for a little foldback. Although it wouldn't be an option for a gig with a noisy audience due to the figure of 8 pattern.........

[snakehips]

Hi there !

Ribbon mics often pickup sound from the front and back don't they ?
If so, couldn't you position the mic so it is side-on - ie. it takes "signal" from the left and right of it.
This way it would reject the audience noise in front, and also the PA noise (in front or behind).
The musicians would have to partly be side on - with their instruments almost 90 degrees to the audience though. Could work though ?

Might be tempted to try that with an Octava ribbon mic I have, with out Bose L1 system behind us.