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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 19:59:34 GMT
Hey folks
I've been thinking of starting this thread for a while but haven't got round to it. I thought of it when ordering up my last batch of strings for my various axes. There have, over the years, been many many different discussions about strings, so I thought it might be interesting to bring together some general thoughts on this clearly vital subject. The nature of the forum means that we'll mostly be talking various reso strings, but I don't think we need to limit ourselves to this.
So here are some questions to maybe consider: where do you buy your strings? how often do you replace them? do you stick to the same brand, or do you experiment?
Personally, all my steel strings are Newtones of some kind. They sound good and last for ages. I use Nickel on my single cone, not Phosphor Bronze which seems to be marginally more popular. I found the latter had too many overtones for my taste, making the tone somehow too rich. Nickel sound purer, simpler, more direct, with better string separation. I'm a big fan of the Aloha set designed for Weissenborn style guitars. I use them on my dreadnought (which I play lapstyle) and they completely transformed the tone. My strat is strung with Michael Messer slide classics, although I found them to be not too dissimilar from the Ernie Ball's I had been using previously. That's not really a criticism it's just that you shouldn't expect them to be as dramatically different from other brands as the acoustic Newtone strings are, in my experience anyway
My classical is currently strung with Savarez strings, which I do quite like, but to be honest I seem to change brand every time I buy new ones for this guitar. Somehow I've not yet found the perfect set up for it.
So any of your thoughts are welcome. I'm still not entirely sure whether this thread's a good idea, but I suppose we can only wait and see. Just to restate, my idea was to bring together all the most common string type advice which is scattered around the forum, sometimes in threads that are theoretically about something completely different!
take care
LR
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Post by tark on Jun 23, 2009 0:58:09 GMT
I think its worth considering how strings come into existence. String companies do not make the music wire that strings are made from (as far as I know none of them do). Music wire comes from a relatively small number of specialist wire mills. From memory there are about 50 companies in the world making guitar strings and probably a handful of wire mills. So, many string manufacturers are using the same wires sourced from the same mill. If you analyse the gauges and core to wrap ratios of say a medium set of phosphor bronze acoustic strings from each of those 50 companies you will find generally very little variation. You could I suppose say that each company winds the wound strings using slightly different methods at slightly different tensions. Again I'm not convinced this makes a big difference. Given all this I'd say strings of the same type made by reputable companies with decent quality control are all very similar.
Consider also that some string brands are just that - brands. They buy their strings from other companies that actually manufacture strings. They may not always buy from the same factory.
A caveat - most string companies use hexagonal core wire because it easily produces a consistent string that does not require special handling by the users. Newtone strings are one of the few companies to use round core wires on at least some of their strings.
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Post by thebluesbear( al) on Jun 23, 2009 8:49:01 GMT
Hi
This sounds very interesting , and i confess i had no idea so , do i get this correct , the fact that Newtones uses a different method "round core wire" that alone is what makes them different?
i ask out of curiosity nothing more , as i only use newtones for the last 3 years or so and for years i searched and tried various brands,,,,,
i shall read this thread with great interest
thanks for that
al
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Post by percythewonderant on Jun 23, 2009 9:36:44 GMT
This thread reminds me of the song Black Diamond Strings by Guy Clarke
Black Diamond Strings Black Diamond Strings Drinkin’ 1 W. Harper Playin’ Black Diamond Strings Black Diamond Strings Are like white flour and grits You play Black Diamond Strings ‘Cause it’s all you can get
I tend to buy strings in packs of three from the WWW. I change strings when they start to sound dull to me, and just one sweaty nights play can be expensive as I tend to change a whole set at the same time.
Different guitars get strung up with different strings which means that in case of breakages, I have a bag, that I lug to gigs, which contains a whole list (!) of string winders capos etc. and wadges of string packets. Sometimes empty! This means that sometimes I think that I have got spare strings for a guitar and haven't. Then I might replace a string with something from a different set. Unless there is a huge disparity in thickness It is never a big deal.
The only concern with having strings knocking about for a while in my gig bag is that they may oxidise in the packet. I read an article in a magazine that said they might. I'd never thought about it before. I don't think about it much now either. I'm not sure if they ever have but sometimes they look a bit dull when I change them but they sound OK. I wouldn't use rusty ones! The last time I forgot to take my bag along I broke a string and had to replace it with one that someone else had. It was a Martin. A brand I avoid as I once bought a pack that had a half wound G string. It was fine.
Spare a thought for the Madagascan guitarists like D'Gary who due to economics and availability used to unwind old bicycle brake cables to make their strings and still managed to sound great.
Percy
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 23, 2009 10:55:34 GMT
Newtone Strings are literally handmade in a very small workshop by a Malcolm Newton and his associate, Neil. The round core makes the strings feel more supple and they tune up to pitch at slightly less tension than hexagonal core strings. In the old days all strings were made with round cores, but for mass production the round core is too slow when winding, so hex core became the most used system. Some Newtones do have hex cores. Michael Messer electric SLIDE CLASSICS are made with hexagonal cores. This we found makes them a little brighter and more powerful than the same gauge wound on round cores, on an electric guitar. It also made them different to MM National strings in the blue pack, which are also great on electric guitars. Michael Messer NATIONAL STRINGS (both red and blue packs) are made with round cores. These, when we tested various approaches to making a string and put them up against other brands, came out way ahead of anything else IMO. Round core strings have to be wound slower. It takes approximately 60 seconds for Malcolm Newton to wind a round core string correctly. Too fast and the heat can damage the winding. Too slow and the winding will be uneven. Malcolm uses his hands and knows exactly how much tension to put on and what speed the winding should go on at. Hexagonal core strings in a large factory are wound in a few seconds by machines. What really makes Newtone Strings so different is the skill of the 'chef'. Newtone Strings are the equivalent of having a handmade shirt or suit. They are just a beautifully made product that could not be produced by a large factory. I am pleased you like the Aloha Newtones. I helped Newtone and the London Resonator Centre come up with those strings. It was Malcolm's idea to use lighter cores - so you get a 56 E string, but it has a thinner round core than a 56 should have, so it tunes to pitch at less tension than a regular round core 56. The idea was to create a string that would tune to GBDGBD on a Weissenborn style guitar. On an original fragile Weissenborn I would use discretion and probably only go up to FACFAC. Also on the packet - it's my shirt!!!! I have used Newtones on all my guitars since 1991. Shine On Michael.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 23, 2009 11:08:56 GMT
Strings do oxidise in the packet when they get old, but from my experience they seem to sound fine. They just look dull.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by tark on Jun 23, 2009 19:21:26 GMT
Round core wound strings - most piano strings are wound on round cores. Apparently they sound better, the high harmonics are more accurate. The problem is there is nothing to hold the wrap wire tight on the core. Hex cores help to lock the wrap wire in place. Newtone round core strings use the piano string technique of compressing the free end of each core for a few inches into a roughly square cross section. Once the wrap wire gets as far as wrapping over this square section the wrap is locked in place. This is why Newtone round core strings should not be trimmed to length until after they have been fitted.
String oxidation - Phosphor bronze and brass (I think) wrap wire oxidises more quickly when exposed to light, as well of course to the air and moisture. The problem with oxidation is not so much on the outside of the strings but on the inside. The tin plated steel core wire and the wrap wires have quite a large electrochemical differential. When moisture gets between them the electrochemical action accelerates the corrosion. An ideal music string should be flexible and as uniform as possible along its length. Internal corrosion stiffens a string, makes in non-uniform (different amounts of corrosion in different spots along the length) damps its high frequency performance and destroys its ability to generate accurate harmonics. This is why very old strings sound dull and never seem in tune.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 9:59:48 GMT
My contribution after many years of using Ernie Ball 10s on my Yamaha MSG electric i recently changed to the Newtone equivalent primarily because after much experimentation about strings for my Yamaha SG500 which is set up for slide [raised nut and bridge - steel like approach to playing] I settled on MM electric slide classics 15s and am very satisfied and wanted to show some kind of brand loyalty and support for a local business regards David
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Post by percythewonderant on Jun 25, 2009 10:50:30 GMT
Hi tark, Thinking about Oxidisation again, sweat is going to seep in and get at the core and as Neil said 'Rust Never Sleeps' So can you tell me if string cleaners work to eliminate the problem when strings are on the guitar for a while? I used Kleanease (?) a few times but they didn't seem to make a lot of difference and I didn't want to risk damage to the surface of my finger boards so I went back to changing my strings regularly. Percy
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 25, 2009 11:05:35 GMT
Percy, I use a Chamois leather (a real one) to clean my strings. I do it after every play and it keeps the strings free of moisture.
Round core strings do not hold the dirt from your fingers, it bounces out. Hex strings will hold the dirt more because they are less flexible and the dirt clings to the hex core.
When using the chamois 'shammy' give the strings a realy good rub. I do the whole guitar with the chamois after gigs. It completey removes all the moisture.
I have never used any kind of cleaner or chemical on my strings. Having said that, last year when I was with Debashish Bhattacharya, he was very keen on using John Pearse string wipes. He said it doubled the life of his strings. I tried one and it was pretty good.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by tark on Jun 25, 2009 13:48:44 GMT
Hi tark, Thinking about Oxidisation again, sweat is going to seep in and get at the core and as Neil said 'Rust Never Sleeps' So can you tell me if string cleaners work to eliminate the problem when strings are on the guitar for a while? I used Kleanease (?) a few times but they didn't seem to make a lot of difference and I didn't want to risk damage to the surface of my finger boards so I went back to changing my strings regularly. Percy Hi Percy, Bare steel surfaces are certainly protected from rust by a coating of oil or grease so I think its pretty clear that if you introduce a coating of some kind it will retard corrosion to some degree depending on how effectively it isolates the surface of the metal. There are two problems with this - firstly how do get an effective coating onto the surfaces of the metal components of the string - and secondly how do you do this without affecting the feel and tone of the string. What you really want to do is not so much coat the outside of the string but get the coating in between the core wire and the wrap. there's always a danger that any coating will have the same effect as the corrosion and deaden the strings. This is certainly one of the objections players often have to coated strings. A second objection is that the external coatings change the feel of the strings in a way they don't like. A third objection with the external pre-coatings is that the coating starts to fray and flake off Leaving aside for the moment the pre-coated strings like the Elixir, you are left with the various liquid string treatments. As you say its important that these liquids don't damage other parts of the guitar and to some degree we have to take the manufacturers assurances that this won't happen, on faith and eventually, experience. If you are going to use one of these products it should be from when the strings are brand new, once the corrosion starts its hard to stop. I have seen a couple of products I'd like to try - Rohrbacher Dr Buzz's String Dressing - only available from the US as far as I know and Stringlife which unfortunately the UK retailers have never had in stock. The various products advertised as string cleaners I don't think are quite the same as those advertised as life extending treatments or coatings.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 17:24:35 GMT
I'm new to this National Steel game, so forgive my ignorance, but I just fitted a regular acoustic guitar string to my MM Blues, only to hear it break when I put said guitar back in its case after a (non too strenuous) jam. It broke at the tuner end - any ideas why pls? I appreciate what Michael's said about round core strings, but do you have to buy National Guitar strings as opposed to regular acoustic guitar strings, in the same way you'd buy banjo strings for a banjo?
I'm trying to order some Newtones, but things seem to be moving a little slowly as you can't order online - can anyone recommend any other strings I can try pls, as I've got a guitar I can't play at the moment!
Cheers,
Paul
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 20:42:06 GMT
Regular acoustic bronzewound strings are fine, but what brand you go for will always be a matter for personal preference, there's no absolute definitive answer..some people will swear by Newtones, others are happy to stick with XYZ brand or whatever. It's pretty rare for a string to break when it's not being played (in my experience anyway). Were you using the right string gauge, to ensure it wasn't over-stressed (which string was it was it, plain or wound?, and had you wound it onto the tuner post correctly? Obviously if you are using the wrong gauge and/or tuning it too high it'll increase the chances of it breaking.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 28, 2009 22:52:21 GMT
Hi Paul,
You don't have to buy special strings for your MM guitar. The Newtones are great, but certainly not essential. For many years before I started using Newtones I used Martin strings on my Nationals. I have not tested many brands of strings on MM guitars, but the ones I have tried (a few major brands) worked fine.
John is correct about the breakage issue. No string, even a cheapo no-name set, should break like that. What strings are they - were they new strings - what tuning was it in - is there a sharp edge on the tuner somewhere?
With some background information we should be able to help you.
Shine On Michael.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2009 20:23:06 GMT
Hi guys - many thanks for the advice. Said string was a Martin .25, tuned to a G (G tuning) - can't find any rough bits on the tuner?
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