balancing query

[Deleted]

Hi Michael - I've just purchased one of your MM Blues resonators on the strength of the Guitarist review/Youtube features, and it's all and more I imagined it would be. Many thanks for making something I never thought I'd be able to buy affordable, much appreciated!
However, as per the Guitarist reviews, I too have had problems sitting it on my lap - not to the same extent as Dave B admittedly - I worked out that sitting on a high stool wearing a cheap suit is a sure-fire way to have it fly off your lap! However, I do find it difficult to balance on my lap - I find fitting a strap hurts my back, so at the moment I'm experimenting playing like a classical player ... ie with the guitar pointed skyward and resting between my legs, with my left leg balanced on a classical footrest.
I was just wondering if you had any advice re how to hold the guitar, and whether this is a common problem with national steels? I appreciate they are going to be bottom-heavy, due to the weight of the cone.
Cheers,

Paul Morris

[Michael Messer]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your message. I am very pleased that you are happy with your MM guitar. Every MM guitar is important to me and you can ask questions or get advice from me any time for as long you own your guitar.

The balancing that you are asking about is something that some people do take a while to get used to. I have been playing Nationals for so long that the balance is natural to me, so I never have that problem.

I would say there are three solutions to the problem:

1 - fit a strap, which as you say makes the whole thing heavy on your back.

2 - play in the classical position as you are doing. Quite a lot of metal-bodied resonator players choose this method.

3 - play in the regular folk guitar position and don't give in. Eventually the guitar will stay on your lap and not give you any problems. It just takes a while to find the best way of balancing the guitar.

I am aware that some people do have this problem, but I have never or don't remember ever worrying about that. I have never had one slide off my lap.

John Hammond plays his National Duolian whilst sitting on a high stool and wearing a shiny suit. I have never seen John have a problem with the guitar slipping away from him.

Perhaps some other forum members could comment on this subject for Paul.

Keep in touch,

Shine On
Michael.

[Gerry C]

I usually use a strap whether standing or sitting (due to having back problems too) but I forgot my strap the other night at my local folk club. After a momentary panic and then some thought I went for what I call John Renbourn Mode, as he was the first guy I saw do it. It involves sitting and crossing your right ankle (assuming you're a righty) and resting it on your left knee, then balancing the guitar on your right thigh. It balances all guitars really well; although it can be uncomfortable for a long session, I find that if I just go back to a normal posture between numbers it works out fine. I can be seen using this position in some of my YouTube vids at www.youtube.com/gerrycoop - it's much easier to see it than describe it! (See especially the vid for My Train Is Waiting.)

Cheerily,

Gerry C

[Deleted]

I have a Busker Delta...same as a MM Blues but with a slightly wider neck.

I have a strap button fitted to the heel and facing down, ie to the floor when you play. I use a bass guitar strap and find the guitar very easy to wear when playing standing up, as I always do.

Barry

[fibrebundle]

I too had the 'balancing problem'. So, I use the classical position for resonators, and am
quite happy with it!

[railthin]

Hi Paul,

I sympathise with your problem, I have an MM Lightning that I adore, but I was getting aching shoulders from playing and realised that it was because I was compensating for the bottom heaviness tipping the guitar. I was also finding that it was affecting my playing as I was using my right hand thumb to hold the neck down. I tried playing "classical position" but hated it.

In the end, I made a weight out of a piece of 1/2" thick mild steel that I had knocking about and screwed it to the back of the headstock (it's not quite as crude as that sounds).

I worked out what weight I needed by hanging the weights from my kitchen scales on a bit of string hanging from the headstock and playing.....what felt comfortable was what I needed.....it worked out as 11ounces (though I didn't take trouser material into account when determining this! :-) )

John

[blueshome]

Like Michael, I've never seen this as a problem apart from in the first few hours of trying to play my first metal body. A little persistence and it ceased to be a problem. Yes it may slip around occasionally but you soon learn to balance it to compensate.

If you really can't get to hold it ok, then I would recommend a strap rather than changing position or nailing bits of old iron to the guitar.

[fitchmeister]

Personally i play in the classical position - my tricone is very heavy compared to a higher quality light weight instrument and i find gripping it with my arm restricting ,even if my right hand is largely resting on the bridge most of the time.

I don't use a foot stool - i tend to wedge my heel up against a chair leg to compensate, but then that makes foot tapping harder for me - am left footed. So what do i know

Roj

[railthin]

Oh Blueshome, please!........a bit of respect for other peoples opinions!

You haven't seen my "bit of old iron"...........maybe it is hand crafted with mother of pearl arabesque inlay and anodised surgical steel set screws........you don't know.

Perhaps you'd describe a Diamond slide as "a bit glass of hacked off the end of a bottle"

Anyway, it's a solution that's worked for me.
John

[Michael Messer]

I always try to respect other peoples' opinions, especially when we are discussing ethnic folk music and how to play it. One person says you must use a glass bottleneck to get an amazing tone, and another person will get the same amzing tone by using something else. That is something I accept in the subject that we are talking about.

If the piece of metal screwed to your headstock works for you, then so be it. But I can tell you that in nearly 40 years of exposure to Nationals, Dobros and other resophonic instruments, your piece of steel on the headstock is a new one on me.

If it works for you, then I have no problem with that at all. My only problem is that (A) it will have completely changed the balance of a balanced instrument, and that (B) It must have affected the tone. There is no way an 11 ounce weight on the headstock could not affect the tone. The thickness of metal and the overall weight of the instrument is all part of the design that has been used since John Dopyera's days at National in the 1920s.

I still maintain that the balance of a National-type guitar is something one just gets used to, but if we were all the same the world would be very dull.

Shine On
Michael.

[andys]

Personally I dont have much of a problem with the balance on mine.

There again mine is a 14 fretter so maybe theres less bottom heaviness there.

On the subject of weighting the headstock, folk have done this with their electrics to get more sustain. There is even a purpose built clamp you can buy to do this. Maybe one of these would work for those with balance problems. Or use a clamp capo and store it clipped to the headstock. I have a Dunlop capo clipped almost permanently to the head of my guitar, unless it is actually capo'ing.

Maybe if you replace the tuners, as some folk have done, there are some heavier ones to tip the balance the other way.

Many of us electric players have problems with it being the other way round. Anyone who has played SGs, non-reverse Firebirds, Thunderbird and Grabber basses (to name the Gibsons) and Westone Thunder basses, will know that you need a heavy strap and extra muscles on your fretting hand to stop the headstocks from diving downwards at every opportunity.

I guess thats why I play Fenders. Leo seemed to get the balance right on most of his designs from the start.

[railthin]

Hi Michael

To pick up your points..

A. Do you mean “balanced” in terms of vibration, tone or something similar…if you mean in terms of “balancing on your knee” then it can’t be a balanced instrument or this thread wouldn’t have started.

B. Whether it has affected the tone or not I’m not sure…and probably haven’t got the ears/experience to tell. It may be damping out vibration, but I would of thought that it would be minor and not necessarily detrimental …….Maybe Robin has an opinion???

In you playing position, where does the counterbalance come from? Are you clamping it against your body with your right arm to stop it tipping or adding counterbalance with the thumb of your left hand.…..I assume that if you if you just let go when it was sat on your knee it would tip.

John

[Michael Messer]

When I said the guitars are balanced correctly, I do mean that in terms of falling off your knee. It is just something that one has to find - the natural centre of gravity....the balance. I agree that it is different to a regular wood acoustic guitar, but in over 80 years of metal bodied Nationals being used by musicians, it doesn't appear to have been a problem to many of them.

Having said all that - if you have found a solution that suits you, that is great and everyone is happy. The whole point of this forum is to be able to discuss all this stuff, then we all learn and develop our skills.

Regarding your question about where and how do I hold the guitar to stop it slipping off my knee; well the answer is that I don't hold on to it at all, but if I let go I allow it to lean against my body.

The 11 ounce weight is quite extreme and IMO will affect the sound in the wrong way - it will take something away, rather than add something. I agree and know about weight-clips for electric guitars, but they are not 11 ounces. As I said originally; each to their own and I would never put anyone down for doing what feels right to them. The whole point of playing music is about personal expression.

I have been playing National-type guitars every day for 35 years. It is just second nature to me to hold and play almost any shape or size of guitar. That is why I was interested to hear other peoples' comments on the subject.

Shine On
Michael.

[blueshome]

rallthin, No disrespect intended, it was a light-hearted commented intended in a friendly way.
I'm quite sure it is beautifully crafted but it is not a solution I would recommend as it will, as Michael says, inevitably alter the tone, besides making a heavy instrument heavier.

[Deleted]

Hi all - many thanks for all your suggestions - I too was thinking of attaching something to counterbalance the weight of the guitar until I saw a classical guitarist busking last weekend and thought I'd try it his way.
I think I'm getting there re balancing since my post - I find the best way to play it is on a sofa with the sofa cushions taking the weight (I know, Bukka White would be spinning in his grave!). However, I've been perserving with the classical style, and that's been getting better - my backache wore off after only an hour this morning, which is a def improvement!
Cheers,
Paul