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Post by purpleorange on Feb 16, 2009 21:07:44 GMT
I am going to change the tuners on my MM lightning for aesthetic reasons. Are the screw holes in the tuners in a standard place or will I have to drill new holes for screws?
I was thinking about getting the stew-mac tunners, but if there are any alternitive tunners that can be sourced in the UK I would be interested in suggestions
I am also thinking about trying a maple biscuit after reading another thread on the forum, is this a hard job, or will I need to get someone who knows what they are doing to do this for me?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks, Ryan
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Post by snakehips on Feb 16, 2009 21:36:13 GMT
Hi there !
The Stewmac tuners are great - now that the recession has hit, it costs more £ to buy those US stecmac tuners than it did 6 months ago when I got mine.
If you search this forum, you will find more info about tuners. I posted pics of my Lightnin' with these tuners on it. They really did make a huge difference in tuning stability/feel AND they made the headstock look a million times more like a vintage National.
Stewmac are a very reliable company to buy from. Factor in the shipping costs PLUS import tax, duty and the money-robbing customs handling fee.
If interested (or anyone else), I have two sets of National Resophonic repro tuners for sale - white tuner buttons with the fancier engraved plates, as used on nearly all National Resophonic guitars. One set was bought spare and has never been used, the other set I put on a vintage National but kept them when I sold the guitar 6 months later - so they have been used for a short while. I'm in the UK and can post cheaply - say, £40 including postage (within UK) for the unused, £35 including postage (within UK) for the slightly used set. Perhaps I should have mentioned that in the Tin Can Alley section ! Whoops ! Sorry MM.
They should fit your Lightnin unless MM/Robin can say otherwise.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 16, 2009 22:00:08 GMT
Hi Purpleorange, Snakehips is correct - both NRP & the Stewmac tuners will fit your Lightning. My personal preference aesthetically are the Stewmac tuners. I have fitted them on both of my MM guitars and on my fiddle-edge Dobro. They just look right and they work well.
Fitting is VERY easy. You really won't have a problem. Stewmac tuners are available in the UK from Robin at Busker Guitars.
The maple bridge & biscuit is a very worthwhile modification. I highly recommend it. If you are unsure about doing it yourself, as long as you do a straight copy of the biscuit & bridge that you already have in the guitar, it can't really go wrong. Or, if you don't want to make one, get a NRP one for around 10 USD.
As much as I recommend people to go to experienced luthiers for repairs, I also think it is very good to be able to do jobs like this for yourself. It is a great way to get to know your instrument!
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by robn on Feb 16, 2009 22:27:39 GMT
Hi Ryan,
We have fitted quite a few sets of the Stumac restoration tuners to both MM and Busker guitars. They slot straight in without fuss. The plate screw holes do not line up so you need to drill micro pilot holes to guide the new screws. The Stumac tuners come with shallow slot head screws that are virtually self tapping so you only need a micro pilot hole - and don't overtighten the screws.
They do look great on a MM Lightning ;D
Robin
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Post by snakehips on Feb 16, 2009 22:56:54 GMT
Hi again !
The plates do not sit flush with the sides of the headstock as each tuner post has a washer type thing on the inside side of the plates that is bigger than the post-holes in the headstock. You have to countersink a wider hole about 2mm into the post-hole to accomodate these washer thingies.
Pain in the ar** but none of those adjustments are visible afterwards, as the plate covers it all up.
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Post by purpleorange on Feb 17, 2009 21:36:22 GMT
Cheers for the offer ot the tuners snakehips, but I think I am going ot get a set of stewmac tunners of Robin when they come in stock.
When changing the tunners I will try and fit the maple biscuit and some 16-59 newtons to see if there is a big effect on volume and tone. (in for a penny, in for a pound)
Is there anywhere in the UK that I can get a mable biscuit from, or will that have to be ordered from the states?
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Post by snakehips on Feb 17, 2009 23:17:52 GMT
Hi again !
Dave King / Celine at Luthier's Corner, Denmark Street, London should be able to sort you out.
If you are getting stuck, I might be able to sort you out with a NRP biscuit. I have spares but want to keep at least one for "just-in-case" !!
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 18:03:59 GMT
Hi snakehips,
have sent you pm!
Cheers, C.
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Post by Stevie on Feb 21, 2009 18:51:13 GMT
For aesthetic reasons I can highly recommend the "Restoration" machine heads. With regard to tuning stability I have to disagree. My top "E" has, if anything, more backlash than the standard tuners. I'd definitely go for the "upgrade" on aesthetic looks but not on function alone. I did notice an impression of the end of the old plates on the sides of my headstock which is not covered by the new base plates and the take up holes are really close to the centre spine of the headstock, too close really, I reckon that they should be nearer to the middle but Stewmac have no control over your intended application and as such, they supply a one size fits all solution. Check out the relevant dimensions on the Stewmac site frst. You could drill extra holes through the post (if you think that you're up to it !!!!!)
Perhaps the National tuners might be a little better in respect of gear play. It's quite possible to spend several hunderd pounds sterling on "3 on a plate" tuners intended for high end classical instruments. As an engineer (of sorts) I can look at the Stewmac tuners and notice that the bearings are captive riveted to the base plate (repro) The MM standard tuners have pressed bearing plates which although cheap in construction, do what they claim on the tin. Production tolerances are always going to creep in but quality machine heads (Sperzel, Grover, Schaller etc.) are much better in backlash at a directly comparable price level Okay, maybe I received a "Friday afternoon job) but I doubt it.
Overall, I am really pleased with the tuners- despite what I have just written- they really do look the part- but with the benefit of hindsight, I'd try the National tuners. In particular I appreciated the supplied slotted head screws, they just look so 1930s......I am not sure that the world had seen philips head screws back then although maybe someone can correct me here.
It may help anyone considering this upgrade to know that I put three capos on the guitar before removing the strings from the capstans of the old tuners and I was able to re-use the old (new) Newtone strings. Again, I have not experienced wrap windings coming adrift. After following Robin's advice vis-a-vis (un)tightening of strings up to pitch (thanks I believe to the use of the capos) I had no issues whatsoever with waiting for the cone to bed in again. They were a superb fit, perfect alignment with the holes in the headstock.
By the way, I have seen the intonatable biscuit bridge arrangement available from one of the forum members. It looks well engineered but it also looks to be fabricated from metal of some sort. Given that there is supposed to be a noticable difference between the maple biscuit and the rosewood one, and assuming that I am correct in thinking that it looks as though it is made from metal, does anyone on the forum have any opinions on using a metal biscuit as opposed to timber? A PM might be best to avoid topic drift.
Stevie.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 22, 2009 9:34:10 GMT
Hi there !
Do you mean the Stewmac "Golden Age" tuners when you comment on the "Restoration machine heads" or are you talking about some other tuners ?
You said :
".... and the take up holes are really close to the centre spine of the headstock, too close really, I reckon that they should be nearer to the middle but Stewmac have no control over your intended application and as such, they supply a one size fits all solution. Check out the relevant dimensions on the Stewmac site frst. You could drill extra holes through the post (if you think that you're up to it !!!!!)"
Not sure what you mean ! Do the tuner plates sit flush onto the sides of the headstock ?
Do you mean the holes are not deep enough to the centre of the headstock and so the tuner plates do not fully seat flush onto the sides of the headstock ?
If so, have you countersunk by 1mm a wider-diameter hole about 2mm wider - to accomodate the washer thingy on each tuner post, on the inside-side of the tuner plates. If not, the plates will not sit flush - I think you will find THAT is the reason, not the length of the posts or the length of the post holes.
Perhaps you just got a duff set ? I have 3 guitars with these tuners and have fitted a 12 string set on my bandmate's vintage Stella - all worked 110% great.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 22, 2009 10:29:14 GMT
Hi Stevie,
You are the first person I have heard from that has had problems with the Stewmac Golden Age tuners. Snakehips may be right that you have a bad set?
As well as fitting them to dozens of MM resonator guitars, I have these tuners on three of my guitars; MM BLUES, MM LIGHTNING and a 1930s fiddle-edge Dobro. They fit perfectly and although they are not as well machined as Waverley (£180 per set), Schaller (£60 per set), or Rodgers tuners £600 per set!!!), they tune up and stay in tune perfectly. I have searched for something like this for years; an affordable (£35 per set) replacement set of tuners that look right and work well on vintage slotted headstock guitars. They're excellent. I did have to clean up the string holes in one set as it was not drilled properly, but it only took a few seconds with a drill to correct.
I do not believe that the National Reso-Phonic tuners are neccasserily better quality. They are probably made to a similar standard and price.
Let me know how you get on.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by Stevie on Feb 22, 2009 19:25:12 GMT
Hi Snakehips( Happy birtrhday!) Hi Michael,
"Golden Age Tuners" is correct. I bought them using the link that Robin supplied me with.
The tuner plates sit perfectly flush with the sides of the headstock.
I "countersunk" the edges of the holes using a multi fluted 90 degree countersink bit by hand , it didn't take very long and it guaranteed that I did not overcountersink. It also completely avoided the chance of chipping the finish.
According to Robin, the capstans on these tuners are slightly shorter and you do not have to cut them down to fit. I can confirm this was correct.
So the plates are absolutely flush. The holes in the headstock are deep enough, the tuners would not have sat flush if they were too shallow. Perhaps I am incorrect in thinking that the take up holes for the strings should be somewhere nearer to the centre of the visible part of the capstans once installed. On my set, all the holes are right next to the central spine of the headstock assembly.
The MM style of headstock has no noticable "heel" each side after the nut. This makes for a more slender looking headstock, probably more vintage correct but it does not sit comfortably in my Hercules type "auto grip" guitar stands. (they are not too great with "Teles" either) If the headstock was more paddle shaped, that would put the take up holes nearer to the centre of the visible portion of the capstans and I submit that this is what is "wrong" with the tuners. It's just not an "off the peg" style of headstock.
I took off one side at a time and duplicated the installed position of the existing tuners to avoid putting them on the wrong way around.
After 20 years employment in aerospace fitting work and the last 4 years in quality control, I think I can feel confident in stating that I have fitted them correctly. I even used a larger drill purely to centre the position of the tiny (.050") pilot drill and then relieved the top of the screw hole just a fraction to allow for the screw shank. Now that's gilding the lily isn't it.
The top E tuner was rattling before I fitted it. In use it displays that aggravating 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn before pitch change. The standard tuners did that but I thought hey-ho, you get what you pay for. I expected a little better from this new set. You know, much of it is in the design. You cannot set about replicating an 80 year old design without accepting its inherrent drawbacks.
I had to return a set of Sperzels to the States once because they had incorrectly sent chrome instead of nickel. Taking an overview of the design, I will not return these. They look great and are no worse than the standard tuners as far as backlash goes. I've no problem with Stewmac. I just don't think that the effort is justified.
I cannot hold forth on the National tuners because I have not used or seen them. If this is how they all are then I reckon that they would be about the same. As I have said three times now, the "Golden Age" tuners look great, just the part. I cannot describe this any better than I have done. If anyone wants a jpeg of them fitted, let me know.
May I make a plea for the use of slotted head screws, surely the production process of these instruments does not rely on the use of power screwdrivers in the assembly work. I'm tempted to change mine. Are they self tapers around the cover plate?
Stevie.
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Post by snakehips on Feb 22, 2009 21:11:16 GMT
Phew ! Some people are never happy !
Perhaps you should send your guitar back because it "doesn't sit comfortably" on your guitar stand.
Unbelievable !
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Post by Stevie on Feb 22, 2009 21:52:19 GMT
Well, you did ask and my MM Blues does not get put down long enough to place on a guitar stand!
Stevie.
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Post by Michael Messer on Feb 23, 2009 19:40:18 GMT
Hi Stevie, I am not doubting your word or your engineering skills. They are probably a lot better than mine! What I don't understand is why or even how you have a problem. We have fitted dozens of these tuners to MM guitars and have not had any problems. They go straight on and the job is done. I have scanned the headstock of a LIGHTNING for you to see. The holes are quite near the wood, but nothing that causes me any worries at all. I would happily fit Golden Age tuners on a vintage National. In fact I have fitted them on a 30s Dobro. I do not agree that the old style design has inherant problems due to its shape. I do think the Golden Age Tuners are designed with the holes a little off centre, but as I said it really doesn't bother me at all. I am not trying to disagree with you - I am just trying to help and understand the problem. Every single MM guitar owner is very important to me. You own a guitar with my name on it. That name is not just a brand stamped on the headstock, you get me too!!!! As we grow and sell more guitars it will get harder for me to communicate with every owner, but at the moment while we are still a new company I am more than happy to help & advise. Here's the LIGHTNING headstock...no counter-sinking, just eight screws.  Shine On Michael. |
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