Biscuit fitting

[Deleted]

I had my Ozark resonator set up at the same place I get all my other guitars done and the guy tells me he has screwed the cone in place to keep the right intonation, I am thinking now that this is not a good idea as it think it may be effecting the tone, any thoughts
cheers
Alexis

[Gerry C]

What does he mean by "screwing the cone in place"??!! I hope he doesn't mean putting screws into the outer edge of the cone to fasten it to the rim or flange at the bottom of the soundwell. It may well be the case that it WILL affect the tone - and not positively, as it will inevitably damp the vibrations of the cone, as well as being another source for rattle and buzz. Ozarks (indeed, budget resos in general) are noted for not having the geometry quite right to produce good intonation. Because the saddle on a reso is, generally speaking, uncompensated (ie at right angles to the strings rather than slightly slanted so that the bass strings are in effect longer than the trebles, as on standard acoustic guitars) it's very hard to get perfect intonation. But I honestly don't think that "screwing the cone in place" would help...

Cheerily,

Gerry C

[Michael Messer]

Hi Alexis,

Under no circumstances in any resonator guitar of any type or price range, should the resonator be screwed in place to keep the intonation correct. I am afraid that if this is the case, this person has ruined your cone. Once it has had screws put through it, it is over.

Please can you clarify exactly what has been done to your guitar. Where are the screws....are they fixing the biscuit to the cone, or the cone to the guitar?

Don't worry. A replacement cone is not a problem and finding someone to set your guitar up, or helping you through that process from here, is also not a problem.

You will need a new cone. Whereabouts in the world are you - and what model is your Ozark guitar?

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

Arrgh..this sort of thing really hacks me off: guitar repairers totally screwing up an instrument, whether its a reso or whatever (that's why I do my own!). There's no mystery to repairing and setting guitars, just some common sense, logical thinking....and some experience . It appalls me that shops will take on a repair or set-up like this knowing absolutely nothing about the instrument, instead of saying, "Sorry, we don't know anything about resos - you need a specialist"....Name and shame I say!

[Deleted]

right well I got inside and had a look and yes he has screwed right through the outer rim of the cone in six equally spaced places, he's made a fairly acceptable compensated bridge, but i'd say the cone is as you have pointed out knackered, and the biscuit is glued onto the cone, is that normal? anyway it is an Ozark 351N Michael, I will obviously pay a visit to the workshop and extract some pain but in the meantime any ideas for a new cone etc
regards Alexis

[Deleted]

oh and do you suppose that the fact that the actual body of the guitar where the cone sits now has holes drilled in it have an adverse effect?

[Michael Messer]

Hi Alexis,

Is this your guitar?



It should have a 9.5 inch cone - is that correct?

If it does have a regular 9.5 inch cone, it will not be difficult to fit a replacement. As John said in his post....these jobs are not difficult if you are careful. Fitting a new cone & biscuit should be well within your reach. At least you won't bollox it up like the 'repairer' did.

As for the holes in the soundwell; it would be better if they were not there, but they are. They should not cause any problems. The person who did this to your guitar has no idea what they are doing at all and should consider another career.

The best and possibly easiest to get hold of is the cone we use in my own MM guitars. There are a few options, but these are as good as you'll get without buying an expensive National Reso-Phonic cone. You should send an email to robin @ buskerguitars . co . uk (remove the spaces, they are to stop SPAMMERS) >Mention that I have sent you to him and ask for a 9.5 inch cone, biscuit & bridge. I am afraid I don't know the price, but this is your best option at this time.

When you get your cone we can either send you to someone near where you live who knows what they are doing, or help you do it yourself.

Don't worry Alexis. Your guitar will soon be sounding better than it did before.

Keep in touch and let me know if you have any problems reaching Robin at Busker Guitars.

Shine On
Michael.

[Deleted]

Thanks Michael, that is the guitar in question, I will e mail Busker G and let you know how I get on, thanks and thanks Gerry for your help and John I will let you know what the workshop has to say about this, I don't know much about cones but the one that was in there looked pretty crap anyway so a new one might be just the ticket, I am convinced I can get a nice sound out of this guitar but the way it was it sounded muddy and quite dull, so watch this space and I'll let you know how it goes
thanks to y'all love and respect Alexis

[Deleted]

Alexis...I'd be after extracting more than pain from the shop that did this - you need your money back plus the cost of getting it repaired properly (at least the cost of new cone and biscuit, if not the labour for re-fitting).

Unfortunately, I would imagine you will probably be in for a rough ride as if they are incompetent enough to do this bodge without any qualms about screwing up your guitar, then their customer service is likely to match this treatment. Unfortunately this points up yet again the good sense in entrusting your reso only to someone who actually knows what they are doing. For most players, their guitars are generally the best they can afford, and folk can't afford to be messed around like this, irrespective of whether they own a basic instrument of a collector grade piece.

I don't think it's usual to glue the biscuit to the cone, I always simply put a small screw through the hole in the top of the cone into the bottom of the biscuit, just to locate the biscuit on the cone, and using a minimum ammount force on it, enough to get to biscuit to seat nicely.

I am amazed that shops still do this sort of crappy work - if the guy didn't know what he was doing he should have said so. 5 minutes on the internet would have given him some info on how to do the job, rather than spending time and effort drilling holes through the
the metal of the soundwell - I'd tell him he should have engaged his brain before picking up his tools (mind you, I'd probably be tempted to tell him that it looked like he's engaged his tool first, as he's showing all the signs of being a regualr d**khead....but a reasoned argument will work better than insults). Getting them to acknowledge that have taken on a job without the basic knowledge and skills to to it is the first step to getting anywhere: good luck.

[steverino]

Some of the really cheap spider bridge instruments come from the factory with the perimeter of the cone screwed down. As the rims on these instruments are far from flat, the screws are a quick and dirty method to quiet any buzzing. They also kill the tone of course.

I have had good luck working the aluminum to straighten the outer edge of the cone and fit it to a newly flattened rim.

It is not unusual (though unnecessary) for the biscuit to be glued to the cone. Many early Nationals had the biscuit attached with hide glue and four small brads.

[Gerry C]

Alexis, you're right about the Ozark cones, they are pretty naff. I bought an Ozark about seven years ago and after I'd had it about six months I replaced the cone with a Quarterman cone from Stewart-Macdonald in the US and it made a tremendous difference to the tone and volume. However, Michael's advice is spot on: the cones in Busker guitars and MM guitars are good quality stuff. (I have a MM Lightning and my mate has a Busker Delta.)

And when you are going to the "work" shop where you had this done, you should demand your money back AND bill him for the new cone. There's no need to offer him outside (unless you have some big scary mates who can look well tasty, narmean? ) but words such as 'small claims court', 'solicitor' and 'exposure on the internet' may work wonders. A lot of trade for music shops and repairmen comes from word-of-mouth from other musicians (all the guys who have looked after my guitars have come to me this way) so a threat to his reputation on the grounds of basic incompetence may well be effective. On the other hand, it may be for the best if the guy is out of business asap....

Cheerily,

Gerry C

[andys]

This thing makes me cross as well, not only did this shop get it very wrong, but they didn't have the courage and the common sense to refer you to someone who does, or even if they didnt know anyone, to be honest and tell you so. Theres so many folk out there who know their way around resonators, that they could have put you in touch with.
Also, I can do repairs to resonators, cones and bridges. How did I learn? By using forums like this and others to find out, practice and learn on my own guitars, because theres a wealth of advice and information out there, so this "shop" have really no excuse. They could have found out the correct way to repair your guitar, or they could have found out that it was beyond them. Hey I'm a guitar repairer, but some jobs are beyond me. I dont do refinishes, neck breaks, refrets.So what do I do if someone wants this doing? I refer them to people who do and that I know will give them good quality work, and care of their instrument.
Alexis, I also think you should have very strong words with this person/place that has damaged your guitar, refer them to any of the people on here with vast experience of working on resonators, that what they did to your guitar is out of order.
While naming and shaming often causes even more problems than it solves, I would think that being a Bristol location narrows it down a bit, and maybe other people in the area who need resonator repairs, might want to probe a bit deeper, and check that whoever they use knows what they are doing, or at least has the honesty to say that they don't.

[Deleted]

I got a MM cone and a Biscuit and bridge blank kindly made for me by Robin at Busker Guitars and I'm going to set this guitar up, The cone fits perfectly, my original biscuit has the bridge set slightly back but I'm going to try and use the one Robin has sent me which is slightly smaller and fits better on the cone,
All tips and advice gladly received, especially on how to make the bridge and get maximum good intonation
regards Alexis

[Gerry C]

There is probably a great deal of info online, alexis, but I really think that if you want a proper job doing, and unless you are experienced at this type of work, you should get a properly qualified repairman to look at it. When I first got my Ozark reso I took it along to Hobgoblin Music in Leeds and had it set up (a guy I trusted worked there); Hobgoblin also have a branch in Bristol (in the big music shop in College Green) so it might be worth your while to pop in and ask advice, or to see if they know anyone locally (NOT your former repairman!!!) who could do what is after all a fairly specialised job. I've played guitar for over forty years and done all sorts of little jobs on my wooden acoustics, from fitting pickups of various kinds to making new nuts and saddles, but I wouldn't dream of tackling any job on my resos except for changing the strings and cleaning them! Setting intonation in particular is a job best left to an experienced repair person.

Cheerily,

Gerry C

[Deleted]

I agree. When it comes to biscuits and anything related to the string tension, action, truss rods, etc, you are best off going to a luthier.

For those near Aldershot, I have used an excellent Luthier by the name of Joe White.
His website is here: www.jwhite-guitarworkshops.co.uk/.

After a dreadful experience at highly touted resonator repair shop on Denmark Street, I found Joe by way of Guitar Village in Farnham. He sorted some biscuit /action/truss rod issues on my 1993 Dobro 33h beautifully for very reasonable fee.

I have since had him tweek my National Tricone.