Tricone Mic Comparison

[Bill Stig]

Over the weekend I had the chance to compare a variety of microphones to record my tricone. As the question of which mic is best keeps coming up I thought it may be of interest to people here so I've converted them to the dreaded MP3s.
Most of the recordings were done at a distance of around 2 foot to try and get an average sound of the whole of the tricone, though I placed the dynamic mics a little closer as that's were they perform at their best.
The mic preamp was a TLA 5051. This isn't a very neutral sounding preamp, but I kept the gain stage as clean as possible, and it is a lot better than the preamps found on most project mixing desks. The sound card was an M-Audio Delta 1010 recorded to cubase.

I've loaded the file onto Garage Band. It seems to stop and start quite a bit on my computer, so if you have the same problem you may have to download it.

The mics on test are:

1. AKG C3000
2. Audio Technica AT 4033a
3. Oktavia 219
4. AKG C414B-XLII
5. AKG C1000
6. Beyer MCE 86N(C)
7. Sure SM57
8. Sure SM57 Beta
9. Sure SM58 Beta

Some of the results I found surprising, however, with a couple of exceptions, I think I'd be happy recording with most of these mics.

Here's the link:
www.garageband.com/mp3player?|pe1|S8LTM0LdsaSjaFOxam0

I'd be interested to know what others think sounds best if you have the time.

Bill

[Mark Makin]

Speaking personally of course Bill, at first listening my gut reaction is the last one - SM58beta.
It sounds fuller and brighter to me.
But at 60 years old - it's a long time since I heard a dog whistle!!

[pascal]

Bonjour Bill,
Just to have a quick reply:
I found first the AKG C414 , then the Oktavia, best in results, I mean for the balance between bass/medium/treble EQ of your tricone. The most neutral is the AKG.
And the dynamics not interessing at all due of some distorsions in the bass, or very sharp in treble.
When I am recording mine(National sq tricone 1931), I use a condenser MXL 990 (large diaphragme).
I use a distance of 2 foot 3 inches (70 cm?) and place the mic as an "umbrella" aiming the coverplate.
Yes I had some stops too but it's a question of connection speed or may be your MP3 are too heavy for this site (they advise 44100Khz mp3 file).
Hope it helps, and many thanks Bill for this mic shootout.

[Michael Messer]

Hi Bill,

That is an excellent mic demo and should be very useful for people.

If I were recording the type of piece you played as a solo guitar piece and was looking for maximum hi-fidelity, I would probably go with the AKG C414B-XLII. However, if I were recording my Tricone as one instrument in a mix with other instruments, I would probably go for either the SM57 or the SM57 Beta. I say probably, because until you try it, it is hard to tell what it will sound like. Generally speaking, if I am recording a National in a band set-up, I go with an SM57, just as I do on stage. Solo recordings of acoustic guitars, or any instrument for that matter, are a different beast and to fill up the space betwen two speakers, require a more hi-fidelity sound than a 57 can offer.

I use all kinds of mics to get interesting effects when I am recording. An example would be KNIFE SONG on Lucky Charms (for those of you without the CD, it is on my website on the mp3 page - or here> www.michaelmesser.co.uk/Michael%20Messer%20KNIFE%20SONG.mp3 ) - the lead resonator guitar is my koa single cone Fine Resophonic recorded through a knackered 25 year old AKG125 that was placed 10 or so feet away from the guitar and very high, almost on the ceiling. I think for the sound I was looking to get, it sounds great! There is no reverb, eq or effect added to that guitar sound....just what went to tape.

A good thread.

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

In addition to my last post....

There are no rules, only guidelines and what sounds right to the musician & producer.

Bill's examples are excellent.

Shine On
Michael

[pascal]

Heu...
Michael is 2 foot 3 inches = 70 cm?
I get lost!

[Michael Messer]

2ft 3inches is 68.5cm. But don't worry Pascal - In the UK we also use decimal mm/cm these days. We still use miles, not kilometres, but that is all. It is the US that is still on the old system...feet, inches, miles, pounds & ounces, and a 12 hour clock...am & pm.

Au revoir,
Shine On
Michael

[Bill Stig]

Thanks all for listening.

As Michael has indicated, it depends on the sound required as to which mic is used. The tricone has a complex harmonic structure which makes it an ideal instrument with which to test microphones. The following are what I look for in a mic:

1. realism
2. tonal balance
3. ambiance - the overtones of the instrument and room sound
4.character - e.g. warmth. Distortion can be character
5. lack of distortion

I don't think any of the mics covered all of these criteria, but you wouldn't necessarily want them to. The SM57 I would think of as more of a "character" mic, useful for the applications that Michael has covered. The C414 I think of as winning the other four categories, but lacking in character. The Sure Beta mics have quite a lot of "ambience" for dynamic mics and character, but suffer from the reasons outlined by Pascal.
The Oktavia scores highly on character and doesn't perform badly on ambiance for a mic of its price.

I was surprised by the character, tonal balance, and ambiance of the Beyer shotgun.
I've had some success recording vocals and acoustic guitar with the C3000 as its harsh top end allows it to be compressed very heavily in a busy mix. The C1000 usually gets thrown on the high hats, but I've had good results using it on acoustic instruments in live situations.
I like the character and tonal balance of the AT4033 and would personally opt for that, or the AKG C414 recorded in a better room. For live work, I'd go for either of the Sure Beta mics.

These are only my opinions for what they're worth from someone who still works in inches and has only good hearing left in one ear. Thanks for taking the time to listen. I'll have to go now cause the dogs whisteling for her food.

Bill

[Michael Messer]

Hi Bill,

Just out of interest - I have done numerous live sessions at the BBC at Maida Vale over the past 20 years, and almost every time they have mic'ed my various Nationals with SM57s. All the Dobro and National parts I played on the National Debt CD 'From The Horse's Mouth', are recorded with an SM57. So I don't think of that mic as a character mic, more of a basic industry standard all rounder. It has its weaknesses, but it is a great mic. I listened again and still like the AKG C414B-XLII - for recording a solo Tricone it is excellent.

BTW > Your mic & recording techniques are one thing, but your playing has not been mentioned. It sounds great - nice tone.

I think this a great thread and I would be interested to read more comments.

Shine On
Michael.

[growler]

HI Bill,
I have had a quick listen to the samples but I need to sit down and listen to them again when I get a bit of peace and quite from the kids. I am on the point of buying a mic for recording my tricone , and also I will need to use the same mic for when I play the tricone in the duo,
What I have read so far on this interesting thread is I think the SM57 might fit both purposes best.... Incidentally how did you manage to get hold of all those mics for your recording experiment, do you own them..... or have you got to give them back .............. maybe you could loose the SM57 and we could do a deal Bill

I agree with Michael Bill , its a lovely bit of slide playing you have done

Regards Growler

[pascal]

I do agree with Michael!
Bill your tone is fantastic, and the choice of the song too (what kind of tuning do you use?)
Tomorrow I have a gig with my trio in Paris for a "Tiki" night, and sure I will use a SM 57 for the tricone for that live situation! (bass/tenor Nat/sq.tricone)
A condenser in live situation needs a sound ingeneer, otherwise you need more than 1 hour to make a proper sound-check and will have to change the balance during the show for your intruments (if you use a guitar , an uke and a squareneck for exemple) and an empty room during the sound check sounds very different than a full one.
And 70 cm of distance will hide your face to the audience (who's the "masked" steel player?) !!!
à bientôt

[Bill Stig]

Thanks for the compliments.
The tunings just a Gm tuning, Pascal - open G with the B string dropped a semi tone. Incidentally, going off topic a bit, I remember seeing you and Michael some years ago play a very memorable gig at the Wirral guitar festival with a host of other National players.

Hi Growler. Some of the mics are mine that I've collected over the years. Others are ones I acquired for a local music collective - unfortunately the AKG C414 is one of them, though I may be able to keep hold of it for some time. We've received funding to get a theatre reopened with a large budget for recording and PA equipment, I can't move in my house at the moment for all the stuff - I'd love to loose some of it. I have a bunch of SM57s, but I'm keeping them all - mits off

[Michael Messer]

I didn't know you were there Bill. That was November 1996.



WIRRAL GUITAR FESTIVAL, BIRKENHEAD, ENGLAND, NOV' 1996 ( photo ©Michael Lewis)

From left to right:
Stuart Cumberpatch. Dave Temple. Steve Evans. Mark Makin. Terry Clarke. Ed Genis. Pascal Mesnier.
Seated: Michael Messer
(Andy Crowdy, our double bass player had gone by the time the photo was taken. Photo by Mike Lewis!!! Cool )