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Post by mitchfit on Apr 3, 2023 19:51:22 GMT
there might be many out there who are/were aware that "Canned Heat" song "going up the country" on third album was first released in 1928 by Henry Thomas.
hearing below video for the first time, i was impressed in how the band altered the original very little, except some contemporary lyrics added in with originals. kinda guessed that would indicate they gave Mr. Thomas credits on the album.
wrong!
record label greed and ill-gotten $$$ can be blamed for this 1970 release as it wasn't put in public domain by law until 1972. how much extra ink would have been required to just include his name in the credits?
library.osu.edu/site/publicdomain/2020/07/27/when-does-music-enter-the-public-domain-in-the-united-states/
rant over, original plot resumed:
mitchfit
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Post by Michael Messer on Apr 3, 2023 20:04:03 GMT
Mitchfit, you are absolutely right about them not crediting Henry Thomas.
I have known the original recording for a very long time.
I suspect many of these decisions were made by managers and record companies because the artists were so passionate about this music and I like to believe they couldn't have done such a thing. Sadly, it is not just this artist that was not credited or paid by rock bands in the 60s. Led Zeppelin and many others went down this route.
The Rolling Stones were the opposite and would only do their first US TV appearance if Howlin' Wolf was invited to perform on the same show.
Shine On Michael
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Post by tomgiemza on Apr 3, 2023 20:56:19 GMT
There was a lot about capitalizing on Black artistry in this article: www.salvationsouth.com/hellhounds-and-phantoms-biography-of-a-phantom-robert-johnson-don-mcleese/ (posted by snakehips in a thread about RJ book) On the other hand, in american folk music tradition, there always was a rather loose approach to a copyright subject. Artists were "borrowing" songs from one another, changing them, adding verses etc. But of course, Going Up The Country was almost exact cover, so Henry Thomas should be clearly credited as the writer. So it is different case than songs like "St. James Infirmary" or "Stagger Lee" and many more which had a countless versions and it was difficult to trace their true origins. And until the british invasion nobody could seriously capitalize from an old folk songs (maybe except big stars like Louis Armstrong?). I like to believe in managers and record companies blame too. By the way, in HBO series "Vinyl" there was an episode with an interesting depiction of Robert Plant and Peter Grant.
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Post by mitchfit on Apr 3, 2023 21:33:11 GMT
^^^^
"Sadly, it is not just this artist that was not credited or paid by rock bands in the 60s. Led Zeppelin, Cream, and numerous others did not credit the writers."
i could spend hours expanding on this one sentence, but it would only give me a bad case of culo rojo. and i was never burned in the deal anyway, so what room do i have to whine about it?
mitchfit
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Post by Michael Messer on Apr 3, 2023 22:10:21 GMT
There was a lot about capitalizing on Black artistry in this article: www.salvationsouth.com/hellhounds-and-phantoms-biography-of-a-phantom-robert-johnson-don-mcleese/ (posted by snakehips in a thread about RJ book) On the other hand, in american folk music tradition, there always was a rather loose approach to a copyright subject. Artists were "borrowing" songs from one another, changing them, adding verses etc. But of course, Going Up The Country was almost exact cover, so Henry Thomas should be clearly credited as the writer. So it is different case than songs like "St. James Infirmary" or "Stagger Lee" and many more which had a countless versions and it was difficult to trace their true origins. And until the british invasion nobody could seriously capitalize from an old folk songs (maybe except big stars like Louis Armstrong?). I like to believe in managers and record companies blame too. By the way, in HBO series "Vinyl" there was an episode with an interesting depiction of Robert Plant and Peter Grant. Recording a song that has untraceable origins, known as “traditional/arranged by” is a whole different thing to recording someone else’s song and not crediting them or paying for the use of it. Going Up The Country, When The Levee Breaks, Crossroads, Have all been used in this way. If Little Richard had recorded Keep a Knocking But You Can’t Come In today, he would have had Kokomo Arnold knocking on his door for “borrowing” Busy Bootin’. Shine On Michael
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Apr 3, 2023 23:00:55 GMT
Not too sure about the Cream comments but on my UK lps bought in the 1960s I'm pretty sure Muddy Waters, Skip James, Willy Dixon, Willie Newbern and certainly Robert Johnson were credited.Sometimes they added "arranged by" to a couple of the credits. Maybe these credits weren't on the US Atco releases at the time? I know that Skip James was very grateful for the royalties he received for their recording of 'I'm So Glad'. I'll dig out my originals and check when I get some time. Probably wrong - it was a long time ago.
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Apr 4, 2023 8:59:43 GMT
Just checked my lps and I was correct except for the live version of 'Crossroads' on 'Wheels of Fire'.
Hmm... credited as Traditional/arranged by - how did that one get past Eric of all people?
Guess the record company thought they'd grab that one for themselves
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Post by pete1951 on Apr 4, 2023 9:58:02 GMT
I sometimes play ‘Going up the Country ‘ at jams ( though without the middle 8 as that can confuse some ) Though I used to play the flute, I do the ‘tune’ on ‘quills’, so it is a nod to Henry T while the words are familiar to most of the audience.
Quills ( pan pipes) are fun to play as you can’t play a wrong note ( though you can only play in one major key and it’s relative minor if you have s set like Henry’s)
One day I’ll find someone who can play ‘Fishing Blues ‘ which uses the same set of tuned pipes Pete
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Post by slide496 on Apr 4, 2023 10:40:29 GMT
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Post by tomgiemza on Apr 4, 2023 12:21:41 GMT
Interesting article. "it’s not always easy to determine where imitation ends and theft begins" - words of wisdom. I think that before The British Invasion folk musicians could take songs from one another, because they were members of the same gang and nobody was making a serious money either. It reminds me a quote (but I can't remember who said that), that 20' and 30's music was the sweetest music ever recorded, because it was played for enjoyment and nothing else. True. But this was already a case of stealing, because recording industry people used the fact, that many folk artists didn't even knew the concept of making money out of records and they were giving away their songs for peanuts (or nothing).
Bob Dylan was mentioned, I'm a huge fan of his songwriting, but technically he often synthesize old lyrics, stories, facts, poetry etc.
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Post by Michael Messer on Apr 4, 2023 12:38:19 GMT
I once had a conversation about this with JJ Cale, in particular how his music had affected and influenced Dire Straits and his close friend, Eric Clapton. JJ's response was that he was honoured to have influenced those artists, he didn't see their work as direct copies of his work, and while I consider Cale to be a total original, he said that everybody gets it from somewhere.
I have been down this road with my own music, working with samples from old records and riffs that have been around before. It is a fine line, but it has to be honoured and done correctly. When it really comes down to the crunch, the song or melody is either an original, or it is a cover. There is nothing else.
Shine On Michael
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Post by bonzo on Apr 4, 2023 12:58:02 GMT
Might beg to differ there Michael. There is also interpretation I think. Much of the music we love which came largely from continental Africa was reinterpreted folk songs that were adapted for instruments available at the time. I of course appreciate the fact many instruments were made as close as possible to African instruments. Anyhow the first steps on the path to what is now 'American music' blues, jazz et al were taken.
Best wishes to you all, John
(Cut short, grandkids just arrived!)
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Post by Michael Messer on Apr 4, 2023 15:06:28 GMT
That is a fair point, John. The whole of American music, apart from Native American music, was taken and interpreted by the new inhabitants. This is kind of what I was leaning towards saying that my use of riffs, licks and themes from the past, are part of my own music. So JJ Cale was right when he said that everybody gets it from somewhere.
When I first saw Malian musician, Ali Farka Toure, playing his music, he could have been John Lee Hooker or Skip James' brother. So sometimes those roots and family histories come down through the generations and subconsciously show themselves, like they did and still are in so many African Americans' music. I spoke with Taj Mahal about this and he was and still is very tuned in to this river of influences flowing through the generations. I have also experienced this with my Indian friends, that some of the musical themes that came into Western culture via the Gypsy trail, are actually rooted in India.
In the world of Western publishing there can only be original or cover, they don't do "interpreted by".
Interesting.....
Shine On Michael
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Post by mitchfit on Apr 4, 2023 18:14:29 GMT
someone more adept at math than me could pick out the frequencies of musical notes within the audible spectrum that fall between so low they sound like a 3 phase power supply line grounding out in the distance and so high they can literally be used as sonic weapons. duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=us+military+sonic+weapons&ia=web[there IS a good reason most guitar amps don't have horns or tweeters in the speaker cab.] then they would narrow the field down to an even smaller amount of keys to write songs in that are generally perceived as pleasing to [most] human ears. then the notes within those keys that don't sound so bad they feel "out of tune". this would be a vast number of melodic compositions possible, but if like myself you also feel that music itself is older than dirt, eventually repetition will occur from different sources. [consciously/unconsciously of originator] the worst aspect of the copyright dilemma is the inconsistency of legal rulings made on this section of law. f'rinstance the ruling against George Harrison for writing a song, "My Sweet Lord" in the same key as a previously released song. [IMO] in the specific case of Henry Thomas, what if one of his offspring heard the Canned Heat version of his song and found a lawyer who felt so strongly their case was just that he agreed to take their case for a % of the amount awarded. better still, even on a pro bono basis. how long could the family/lawyer afford to expend on this venture? how long did it take one who DID have the cash and lawyer power available to them to win/reacquire the right to sound like themself? or better stated, lost a music career because their singing voice was deemed to be plagiarizing a band they were no longer in: duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=how+john+fogerty+took+17+years+to+win+the+legal+rights+to+sound+like+himself&ia=webi don't pretend to have the legal expertise to even understand laws written in a foreign language. [intentionally?] but it is obvious to even the most casual observer they need overhauled badly. <$0.02, mithcfit
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