Low-tuned guitars or baritone ?

[snakehips]

Hi there !

I had a prewar, slide guitar blues CD playing in my car this morning, and Buddy Moss's "Jealous Hearted Man" came on.
Great slide playing but the guitar seemed to be in quite a low key. According to the CD pamphlet, the song is in the key of C (I can't confirm as I'm at work now and don't have a guitar or whatever, to check).

So, does he have a regular acoustic guitar, in Vestapol, tuned all the way down to C ?
I'm sure the guitar strings would be more flappy and uncontrollable than it sounds on the record.

Then I remem,bered seeing FB adverts from a guitar store in the USA that specialise in vintage parlour guitars - Stella etc.
Occasionally, they have 6-string long-scale guitars, with circa 26.5" scale-lengths.

I just wondered if perhaps Buddy Moss was playing one of those long-scale guitars, instead of a regular guitar tuned WAY down & flappy.

Anyone with thought on that ?
I have a 26.5" scale-length 12-streng guitar (Fraulini, copy of vintage Stellas) and I can see how you could easy tune to C and the guitar still be easily controllable.

Here is the song :

[Pickers Ditch]

My MM Blues '28 is strung with Newtone Monel 15s tuned to C and I don't have any problems with it.

Tuning is stable, easy to play and sounds great.

The same can be said for a couple of parlours I have strung with Newtone Monel 13s.

...but you've got to be gentle with 'em - no finger picks or Bukka White bashing.

[Stevie]

From time to time I comment that I play mostly in CGCGCD, and my 25.5" scale acoustic handles it very well indeed with a 12 thou' set of D'Addario EXPs, but PD makes a very valid point about circumspection regarding finger and thumb picks. On an older guitar (Yamaha LS400) I developed a technique of playing up strokes with the thumb on the low C to compensate for the "flapping", but I no longer find the need for that bizarre approach.

でつ e&oe ...

[pete1951]

I would guess that many who play in open tuning use ‘ standard ‘ strings, so very often open G or D will have slightly slack strings. A set designed for open tuning ( like the Newtones) will probably be a little heavy on some strings ( particularly the the top and bottom) so would be fairly happy down a tone.

Some acoustic players use an 011 top string ( tuned to E) some an 015. There are compromises to be made ( too slack and the strings don’t ring out probably) give it a go, if your bottom string is a bit floppy go up a gauge, or get some of the strings recommended above.
Pete

[slide496]

I found a list of the George Mitchell Collection of positions and pitch which John Miller identified on Weenie Campbell, and Buddy Moss is on it.There were a reasonable amount of players in the collection that pitched low besides Buddy Moss. IMHO the ones that tuned low might have either chosen or been given or loaned guitars that handled the lower pitch or knew how to string the instruments they played to play at the lower pitch. I don't think any looked specifically for baritone guitars per se.

Harriet

[snakehips]

Hi again,

Well, as no one yet has pointed out, maybe I shouldn't have used the word baritone, as I believe that implies an even deeper tuning than low C.

Long-scale would probably be the more accurate description - and something maybe not considered abnormal enough in those days to describe it as anything other than just a guitar. I do find it feasible though that some of these guys used a long-scale guitar (eg.26.5") as either their main guitar or as a 2nd guitar for certain tunes or certain keys.

As mentioned by others above, tuning a regular acoustic down to C can be done but you have to be really careful not to over-do the playing - expecially on the 6th string. On three Buddy Moss recordings I listen to today, that seem in very low tuning, I didn't detect any flappyness of the strings at any point in the songs - and thus I'm seriously thinking a long-scale type guitar might have been used.

Plus, Buddy Moss did play & record a lot with Blind Willie McTell - who played long-scale 12-string guitars (tuned low), so I'd think it would make sense to also have a long-scale guitar rather than have a regular acoustic tuned really low.

[blueshome1]

I listen to a lot of Buddy Moss. Certainly on his 1930's recordings he is invariably tuned down, normally half a step but occasionally a whole step. Curley Weaver often tuned down to C for slide, especially when playing with Willie McTell. Are you sure it's not Curley on Jealous Hearted Man? I think they both used regular guitars, I play their stuff on a concert sized Stella.
The other player who tuned down to C, in this case C Vasterpol, is Josh White in most of his 30's recordings, again on a regular guitar - check out Ari doing this

[slide496]

Just to add the info that the Kay Kraft Guitar Buddy Moss is shown with in the original post - I don't know if that is what he is playing - is reported online as 25 1/2 to 25 3/4 depending on the model.

And to add to the post I did see a Kay Kraft model in a guitar shop awhile back - at TR Randall - it was 00 size at least and 14 fret. If I'm not mistaken Moss is holding a 14 fret model, but they also made smaller bodied 12 fret models.

Harriet

[blueshome1]

Hi Harriet,
All the players at that New York session are shown holding that Kay guitar so we don't know whose it was. 25.5" is standard Martin scale. I do know that on other sessions Buddy still tuned a 1/2 step down in virtually every occasion, I don't think it needs a long scale guitar,
For slide down to C like Curley Weaver it is possible he was using a grand concert or auditorium Stella which did have a longer scale, remember he played a lot with BWMcTell who tuned down as far a A. However I've tried sliding on my little Stella and it is ok down in C even with fairly light strings and easy with a heavier top string.
Buddy from the 30s