National engraved tuners - vintage ones and good copies

[snakehips]

Hi there,

Just thought I'd post some pictures of the tuner plates of the "engraved" type that came on higher-end Nationals, and compare to "standard" (cheaper ?) rectangular plate tuners, and a good reproduction "engraved" plate tuner set.

I have found that all National tuners work & last well, except (in my experience anyway) the "Mickey-Mouse" engraved tuners (details below) AND some late 30's / early 40's tuners.

Firstly, here are some "standard" rectangular, 3-on-a-plate plate tuners :

Pic 1. 1930 National Polychrome Triolian - rectangular plain plates :


Pic 2. 1935 National Duolian - rectangular plain plates :


Next, is a picture of both styles of "engraved" tuner plates National used on higher-end guitars - Tricones, Style O's and Triolians :

Pic 3. Notice the ends of these plates have different cut-out shapes - a good way to identify which type you have.


The high-quality tuners plates used on National Tricones tend to be shiny, nickel-plated, and the ends of the tuner plates have TWO peaks between small "ear" corners. The also have the "engraved" (stamped, more likely !) in so-called Fleur-de-Lis pattern.

Style O and Triolian tuners look more like plain steel plates to me (not nickel-plated) - and don't have the Fleur-de-Lis engraved pattern, just a band of lines along each side of the plates. The ends of these plates have a single peak between large "Mickey-Mouse ear" corners.

I have owned or seen multiple "Fleur-de-Lis" engraved tuners on Tricones & early Style O's - and all of them were still in good usable condition, and still quite shiny.

Almost all the "Mickey Mouse" engraved tuners I have seen (on circa 1932-33 Style Triolians, a 1933 Duolian and a 1932 Style N) were in poor condition with the metal uprights that hold the gears firmly in place, bending/loosening out of position, so that the tuners did not work well and keep the guitar in tune.

Lastly, see the final pictures, showing both a vintage "Fleur-de-Lis" engraved tuners next to brand new Stewmac Golden Age Restoration Fleur-de-Lis tuners.
They are a very good copy, if not a bit too shiny when new.

Pic 4. Original National Fleur-de-Lis engraved tuners AND the Stewmac reproduction tuners :


Oh, very last picture - I have another set of these Stewmac plates that I left outside for a few days in bracing Scottish weather - that dulled down the shiny appearance a fair bit.
Pic 5. showing TWO Stewmac sets - one set on my National - the set I left outside for a few days before installing, next to a very shiny, brand new set, just out of their air-tight packet :

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[Pickers Ditch]

Mike Lewis did a great job of refurbishing my '31 Triolian Mickey Mouse tuners a la bottom pic.3.

They worked and held tune prior to the refurb but are even better since - not so "notchy".

[vastopol]

Just one thing good to know about the Golden Age "fleur de lys" type is to be sure that you have ordered the good ones; it seems they are made in two different types: "standard" and "upside down".
Most of the old Triplates are fitted with the upside down type.
(upside down means with the gear under the worm gear, I hope my english is clear...but it doesn't means that you just have to fit standard machine head just turned upside down, in fact the worm gear is made for turning in the ooposite way than the modern standard type.)

If you want to use them on an old tricone, you may order a set of cream buttons too, because they are delivered with some kind of ivorïd type of buttons, and not exactely the same shape.
The cream ones looks more apropriate, for not much money and a relatively easy job to do (note these buttons looks even better once polished because they come somewhat too matte).
If you find them too shinny, some thin grade steel wool can tarnish them just like your old ones, and add some black patina of your choice for staining the engraving lines will make them look even better.

(Take care if you ant to work on the Golden Age square "relic" type, in fact the "relic" effect is just a type of varnish, or some surface treatment, looking very uniform and somewhat not so natural...if you try to add more authenticity to them by scrapping, you're going to find a shinny new surface under the matte finish; so when they're going to age naturaly they're going to look more new and shinny, strange paradox isn'it?...).

They look great and work well; the only noticeable difference is the small square plates in wich the worm gear is running are a bit too big...and perhaps not exactely the same ratio?...but when I think about a whole year spent on my computer each morning scrutizing pictures until my eyeballs sprang out, to chasing the missing side for my old squarneck...before Stewmac add the golden age on display.
Thanks you Mr Stewmac!

But before switching tuners, you may ask Mike Lewis to have a look on your old ones; because this man trully can do miracles.

[snakehips]

Hi again !

OK, to clarify, the Stewmac Golden Age Restoration Fleur-de-Lis "engraved" tuners, come with the gears the much older "wrong way round".
The don't offer these plates with the gears the "right way round". If they do, they don't show it on their website.

My early 1930 all German Silver Style O came with (small-ears) engraved tuners with the "wrong way round tuners", and my mid-1930 (ish) all-steel Style O also has the "wrong-way-round" (small ears) engraved tuners

My 1931 Style 1 roundneck Tricone also has the small-ears, engraved tuner plates and the gears are also the "wrong way round".

Not sure when National switched to the gears "the right way round" for the high quality "small ears" engraved plates.
Maybe when they ran out of supplies OR the manufacturer stopped making them that way.

The 1937 Style 3 squareneck Tricone I used to have had the "right way round" small-ear, high quality engraved tuners - so they definitely switched at some point before then !


The Stewmac tuners have the "wrong way round" gears - however, I wouldn't worry about this as they seem to be good.
The ones on my all-brass 1932 National Style N have a set of these Stewmac Fleur-de-Lis tuners - and have been lasting well since I put them on the guitar, over 8 years ago.

Incidentally, my 1932 Style N guitar had the cheaper vintage "Mickey-Mouse ears" engraved tuner plates - with the gears the "right way round".

The treble side plate was missing, being replaced with a vintage non-engraved square plate strip - so there was no longer a matching set on the guitar. I took those tuners off to fit the Stewmac Fleur-de-Lis set, half expecting the plates would not cover all holes and original plate imprints in the headstock. The still-working reasonably well bass side tuners were donated to my bandmate's 1932 Polychrome Triolian, as his were not so great.

Much to my delight, the Stewmac set covers all signs of previous tuner plates, engraved and square non-engraved ones.

Also, the tuner plates are JUST slightly larger than the original tuner plates, helping to hide any marks on the headstock, made by original tuner plates.

See pics below of the headstock of my 1932 all-brass bodied, with the Stewmac Fleur-de-Lis tuners on it :

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[vastopol]

Great to know that old marks can be hidden under these new tuners.
And that they make them "fleur de lys" only in the upside-down type or wrong way round too; in fact I remember the first add on the stewmac paper catalog, when they introduce these new tuners, a pic of a pre-war Martin fitted with these shows a standard modern worn gear, not the model we need for tricones, that's why I call them to ask if the "upside down" version are available.
But they can't answer, nobody seems to know...
It was a good surprise when I open the box to see how these tuners are not exactely the same seen on the picture!
It seems they changed the pics right now; you can't be fooled when you have spent much time to understand many wrong descrptions and scrutinised bad pictures to see if the worn gear runs in the good way or the other...that's how I 've found the missing side: the seller haven't realised it was a triplate bass side tuner; not a treble one.

For someone in need of new tuners: note the Golden age engraved are the only ones "upside-down", all the square duolian-triolian type are working in the standard way.

True there is another mystery about old Nationals, it seems like you can find any type of tuners on any model, both standard or upside-down...