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Post by 5slide on Jun 23, 2022 19:51:01 GMT
I've finally gotten around to doing 'another' cover of my favourite slide song by Blind Willie Johnson. Inspired by the original of course (nothing can beat that!) as well as Catfish Keith's and Ry Cooder's versions.
Hope you like it:
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Post by mikeholland on Jun 24, 2022 7:58:45 GMT
Very nice, the reverb gives it a really nice ethereal feel!
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Post by 5slide on Jun 24, 2022 8:31:35 GMT
Very nice, the reverb gives it a really nice ethereal feel! Thanks Mike ๐๐ป
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Post by snakehips on Jun 24, 2022 11:11:30 GMT
Hi there !
Almost everyone seems to play BWJ's (version of the "traditional") song with a very Major 3rd tonality.
BWJ's song is very different in tone & feel though - in that it leans very darkly towards Minor 3rd tonality, without actually being a Minor key (like a lot of deep blues music).
Some of the slide notes are at the 3rd fret or JUST beyond the 3rd fret (Minor 3rd, v slightly sharp), rather than at the 4th fret (v definitely Major 3rd). While it might seem like a very small difference, it actually produces a MUCH different tonality to the song. And it takes away the best bit about the song - the depth of dispair air the song has. And BWJ's hummed/spoken/sung vibrato is the icing on the cake. No reverb needed.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jun 24, 2022 13:22:53 GMT
5Slide, what you have recorded is very well played, is well recorded and sounds great. I have no criticism at all of your performance, but I do side with Snakehips on this subject. In fact what Snakehips is saying is partly correct, but there is more to it than that. Blind Willie Johnson's recording of Dark Was The Night is not what most people are playing, which I find very interesting and it goes back a long way. What is actually being played is more influenced by Ry Cooder's Paris Texas and by the pure enjoyment of playing etherial other-worldly sounds in open D tuning with a slide, than by BWJ's recording of the Baptist hymn. Playing in open D in this way is an extraordinarily beautiful, restful, musical and hypnotic thing to do, and it has its roots firmly placed in both Western and Eastern cultures. Blind Willie Johnson was not copying Eastern culture in 1927 when he recorded Dark Was The Night, just as Brij Bhushan Kabra was not copying Blind Willie Johnson in 1967 when he recorded Call Of The Valley.
I have spent a lot of time analysing and learning to understand BWJ's recording, which takes a lot of concentration and dedication, but once you get there it is actually not complicated and follows a very clear pattern. It does not wander in the way most cover versions do. What makes it sound so amazing is of course BWJ's vocal that holds the whole thing together. Without the vocal, or something playing that part, the piece is incomplete. There are two sections to his recording and they repeat I think three times if my memory is correct. There is a long verse which does lean towards the minor third, and then there is the short verse which leans towards the major third. In addition and in both verses there is ornamentation and use of blurring the major/minor third that explores half and quarter tones leading into the notes. This is most unusual in western music and particularly so for its time. Apart from his friend, Blind Will McTell, I cannot think of anyone else in this genre that did anything remotely like it. I sometimes do a medley of Johnson's Dark Was The Night and McTell's River of Jordan that demonstrates the two musicians' similarities in this respect. Oddly it is the link into and the last verse of BWJ's recording that most people hook into and copy. I am not sure if that is because it is unaccompanied and clearer to hear, or because it is at the end, but it is the case.
Going back to BWJ's recording, it is also not approached in the way most people do it. It has a pulse and while it is etherial and other-worldly, it moves along at quite a pace. I have occasionally taught this piece to students, but only occasionally because it can be quite hard to take on in a room full of students.
The only way I could explain this fully would be to make a video, but I don't really want to teach the whole world how to play it.
Back in the 1980s when Ry Cooder's soundtrack Paris Texas was released, there wasn't a slide player on the planet that didn't have a version of his adaptation of BWJ's Dark Was The Night. It was Ry Cooder that set the reverb and ghostly soundscape for this, it was not BWJ.
Those that know me know that I am not academic and anal about this stuff, but sometimes there is no other way to explain a point.
I hope that didn't come over as total bollox, as that really wasn't my intention.
Shine On Michael
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Post by 5slide on Jun 24, 2022 17:07:28 GMT
Hi Michael and Snakehips, I completely get your point, and no it hasn't come across as complete bollox at all Michael! This version wasn't supposed to be a copy of the original, but my own piece which is influenced by it, but actually more influenced by Ry Cooder's version - and the whole Paris Texas soundtrack (which you could obviously tell Michael), which I also love. I really wanted that otherworldly atmosphere that is partly down to the reverb but of course the guitar tone and the way it was played are a big part of it too. I'm a wildlife photographer and my intention when I recorded this was to use it as an atmospheric soundscape to accompany my still images to use in my talks/presentations. In case anyone is interested here's a link to my website: www.benhallphotography.com - I'm not trying to sell anything here but thought it could be of interest to some! I have played (but not recorded) versions of Dark Was The Night which are much closer to the original where I use the minor 3rd (and microtonal slides from it) which I totally agree give that feeling of pain and suffering (along with the humming) which are so amazingly apparent in BWJ's, but for this one I had a different aim. Thanks for your thoughts, I really appreciate your insight. It's amazing how many different versions there are out there, I would love to try a version close to the original with the humming - or another part in place of it as you suggested Michael. No doubt one day I will! Maybe I should change the title?
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Post by vastopol on Jul 4, 2022 12:03:08 GMT
All that said, you have played this tune with sincerity, it sound very soulfull, and that's the best proof of respect for your audience, and for the respect of the memory Blind Willie Johnson.
Your playing is clean and subbtle, and that allow me to feel you're not cheating; to get this sound takes a long time.
Just some ideas and a strange fact: I am always stunned by the fact that I am earning my life with the music I play...I just try to pay a tribute to the Bluesmen and Blueswhomen who dramaticaly changed my life, but I never try to play "correctly" or exactely in the same way... I am respectfull and admirative for those who can be able to dig that deep in musical archeology. Of course I try myself to "understand" the original tune and get close as possible, but at a certain point we have to admit that the best musician can't dupliacte Blind Willie's touch. It's somewhat vain and sterile. And I don't think the audience really want's to hear just that kind of rigid synthesis.
That's why I feel it make sense to put something of me inside the tune, sometimes in some weird ways, by changing the pitch, the tuning or the rythm...just like they all does in these times. Some of us will find this shocking, or feel this like a lack of respect. I think we have to be humble, at least, that's respect.
We have to remeber before music was recorded, someone just hear the song in front of a musician, and wake up next morning trying to remember the words and the chords, perhaps in a somewhat crooked way, but in a new and sometimes embelished way. How many version of the same song can be found in Blues, even someones traveling trough Jazz, Hillbilly, Cajun....isn'it fascinating?
I allready know that I can't play this tune like on the original record, and if my audience wants to hear the original one I allways tell who wrote the song. Maybe i'm not that good, but if I'm so bad I shall not be here and nobody wants to pay me to play once again... Music had to be related with the life, with the mood we are sharing at this particular time.
You've made your own variation inspired by Blind Willie's; that's beautifull, he may be proud to see how many peoples are inspired by what he does in his time. That's a real tribute.
(Wait; I don't like any of what you can find on youtube, I tend to be somewhat extremist in terms of sound and touch, but if it's made with a true devotion; that works for me).
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Post by tokyo on Jul 4, 2022 19:46:34 GMT
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Post by vastopol on Jul 5, 2022 8:11:31 GMT
Isn' it the difference between a truly alive music, and a dying music ?
These genius never won much money in their life, most of em die in poverty and neglected, but here's their biggest glory; seeing all those kids breaking bottles and trying again and again to understand what they have done long ago.
That's what does Robert Johnson when he had seen Son House...and how many others strucked by this very special call ? I allways remember the first time I've seen a guy playing with a bottleneck. How gratefull I am...
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 5, 2022 8:37:05 GMT
Vastopol, I think you are misunderstanding what I said.
Considering that all of my 40+ year career playing blues and other roots styles has been about pushing the music forward and not allowing it to stagnate, I am the last person to want the music to be locked in the past. What I said, if you read it again, was that the actual melody, the tune of the piece of music being played is not Blind Willie Johnson's Dark Was The Night, but it is closer to Ry Cooder's Paris Texas, and that was the whole point of what I posted. I also made it very clear that my comments were not in any way a criticism of 5slide's performance, but an observation from an academic point of view of how influential and powerful Ry Cooder's recording has been.
Innovation and not allowing the music to become a museum piece is so important to me and is what I have become known for in my career. However, if we are playing our own version of a tune, it still has to be that tune, otherwise it is not that tune. A perfect example of that is Jimi Hendrix's performance of the Star Spangled Banner, no matter how far he pushed it with his own unique innovations it was still the same tune that everybody recognised. That is different when performing our own version a song, because no matter what is done with the melody of a song, it is still that song.
Shine On Michael
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Post by slide496 on Jul 5, 2022 11:36:28 GMT
its a beautiful instrumental in the tradition of RY Cooder's et al and I cetainly felt some peace from the rendition. I think if the humming vocal was studied along with it, it would create more understanding of the intensity of the despair and could be applied to refine the instrumental. Another benefit for the instrumental would be an interaction harmonically with the vocal. Most of these players were recorded and noted on the vinyls as as singers with guitar accompaniment at that time. I've always wondered with that recording of Johnson's if he was playing in what was for him a normal contemplative manner as if he was alone and comforting himself, or if he was playing to show his "stuff" so to speak to the folks recording him for marketing purposes. There's little question in my mind that the music he produced changed the quality of world around him, and everything was clear, quiet and healing in a spiritually profound manner when he stopped playing.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 5, 2022 16:57:19 GMT
Harriet (slide496), I think regarding your point about whether BWJ was playing for himself, or was he strutting his stuff to impress his listeners. I think that in almost all of his repertoire the only person he was trying to reach and impress, was God. His music was solely for devotional purposes and I think he would be amazed that almost a hundred years after he made his recordings that we would be listening to them. He would be even more amazed and possibly disturbed to know that his recording of Dark Was The Night is at this very moment hurtling through the outer regions of our solar system. Willie might well have achieved his goal.
As an athiest I am a spiritual person and I do believe in being able to reach a higher state of consciousness with music, both as a player and as a listener.
I love this quote by the late great legendary Indian sarod player, Ali Akbar Khan. ......"If you practice for ten years, you may begin to please yourself, after 20 years you may become a performer and please the audience, after 30 years you may please even your guru, but you must practice for many more years before you finally become a true artist, then you may even please God"
I believe that Willie Johnson came from the same school of thought as Ali Akbar Khan and that his whole aim was to eventually please his God with his music and devotion.
>>***I am not trying to turn this thread into a religious discussion and I don't think it should go that way, but I do think what I have written is relevant to Harriet's comments and to other comments in this thread, because to talk in any depth about Blind Willie Johnson's music, you cannot ignore its content and its reason for being played****<<
Shine On Michael
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Post by Stevie on Jul 5, 2022 18:05:48 GMT
Difficult one this, I just really liked Ben's version which it seems to me was only ever posted as one man's interpretation. Although I can understand there are niceties that the cognoscenti would have a handle on, I'm not really bothered one way or another, and it seems to me that this forensic analysis on subtle emphasis only detracts from a fine rendition, and I don't believe the OP intended to garner such a response- just a willingness to share. Call me a coward if you like, but this is exactly why my one and only solitary "recording" which is on YouTube remains "by invitation only". I always end up liking what Ben does and look forward to his next opus.
ใงใค e&oe ...
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Post by Michael Messer on Jul 5, 2022 19:46:54 GMT
To be fair Stevie, I agree with you about 5slide's excellent playing and recording and I always enjoy his posts. I said that at the beginning of my first post one here and I probably would not have said anything at all if Snakehips hadn't posted something about it. That provoked me to respond and from there we started an interesting discussion
It has now drifted from 5slide's post into a discussion about Blind Willie Jonson and covers of Dark was The Night. I found Harriet's comments of great interest because of her question about BWJ's reasons for playing such music. I also liked the 78 record Harriet posted that describes the recording as "Vocal with guitar accompaniment". I think that is a very interesting addition to this thread.
While I do try not to be anal and academic about music, it is hard after 50 years of studying and playing this music not to be academic when discussing it. I can't begin to count how many hours of listening to and studying BWJ's music I have been through, as well as in depth discussions with some of the world's authorities on the subject. I guess that over time this stuff rubs off and does make me listen in an analytical way. These days I rarely listen to the artists I have seriously studied in depth because not only have I been there and done it, but I also can't listen without going in deeper. Occasionally I will hear BWJ's Dark Was The Night, maybe on a playlist in my car, or somewhere that I wasn't expecting it, and it is so beautiful and powerful that it totally overwhelms me, sometimes almost to the point of tears. BWJ is not the only artist that does that to me, but he is the person we are discussing in this thread.
Shine On Michael
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Post by vastopol on Jul 6, 2022 10:07:21 GMT
Excuse me Michael, that's not what I want to say, of course I know how your music and your vision is not that cold for sure. If someone can't be blamed of staying in the historic frame, is you, just by seeing and listen how far you push your research. Its a bit frutrating for me to not be abble to explain more precisely my ideas. (In fact that's partialy why I'm here; maybe any of you may read my post with some reserve as I have to confess that I'm not absolutely fluent in english, my apologies for some borrying reading and many mispellings).
Perhaps my reply sounds too epidermic, because I've met some of these music ayatolah, stucked in a certain perspective that I really can't understand. Perhaps in France the blues afficionados are somewhat special? Most of the time these mens have a great knowledge and plenty of records, in fact they are in the best position to have the best point of vue, but how they missed something.
I just want to turn the light on the nice and inspiring music and pictures 5slide offers to us. (I feel somewhat of Aloha spirit in the fact that his pictures celebrates the beauty of nature, so for me it works very well, even with a bit less of sadness, more athmospheric in Cooder's aesthetic).
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