Replating

[Martin]

I have a vintage 1930s National Silvo mandolin. Same body as a Style 1. Thinking about having it replated. What's the appropriate material to plate it with?  

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[Pickers Ditch]

If it were mine, I wouldn't even consider replating an up coming antique like that; it'll reduce its value significantly IMHO.

That wear down to the brass is part of the mandolins life and history.

Would you replate an antique cutlery set, jewellery, set of candle sticks, etc. etc.?

The decision is yours of course, but there are not many of these instruments left in good condition.

As long as it is playable with no structural damage and sounds good I would leave it well alone.

[leedscitystompers]

Don’t do it. You can’t get it to the same standard after. It’s an intact historical instrument. Preserve that history for the next generation. I’d rather you sell it to me and buy something with more shine!

[pascal]

Jun 11, 2022 5:32:42 GMT Martin said:

I have a vintage 1930s National Silvo mandolin. Same body as a Style 1. Thinking about having it replated. What's the appropriate material to plate it with?  

Martin: It is the big part of its vintage beauty, and value... Don't replate it!

[snakehips]

Don't re-plate it !!!

For full disclosure, I had a vintage National nickel-plated once.
I did turn out lovely but I learned quite a lot from it.

It was a Triolian body (the bakelite neck model, with the extra top hole under the fretboard extension).
When I got mine, the original paint finish was long gone - and it had been repainted metallic gold - and even that was peeling off.
Also, the Bakelite neck was long gone too.
So, I got a new neck made for the guitar, by a top luthier, and he sent it (on my request) to a reputable plating company - a company who actually were used to plating resonator guitars, as they had done Beltona reso guitars in the past. It turned out really nice.
In hindsight though, if I had know about the brilliant work Rik Besser does, I might have sent the guitar to him instead. But this was 20yrs ago.

Anyway, my point for this post is that re-plating is a complicated process.

First, you need a good luthier to remove the neck before re-plating, and re-install the neck correctly - without damaging the neck, or anything else, at any point.
As for the guitar body itself, the platers remove the original nickel-plating by "reverse plating" by electrolysis - essentially the cathode & anodes are reversed.
Next, they have to polish the bare brass to a very high polished surface, so that re-plating will be of a decent high quality BUT not heat the metal so much in the process that the solder joints start melting - and the guitar body falls apart !
You also don't want them polishing away detail in the guitar body, or just dulling the sharp lines and shape.
Also, how will they do the coverplate ? If you chose not to re-plate the coverplate, then it's faded nickel-plating might look out of place with the brand new, super shiny body.

In short, don't even think about it !!!

[Martin]

In addition to the wear, there is corrosion from an outgassed pickguard. Comments like "what about the cover plate?" lead me to suspect that you're not even doing the courtesy of looking at my photo.

The question here is what material should be used to replate, not whether to do it.

[bonzo]

Maybe that big round black thing on the front of your guitar?

[Stevie]

I have no axe to grind one way or another regarding this (and the following should be read in that context) but it's difficult to concieve of a suggestion as to what "material' to replate it with coming from a collective that is vociferously against such an undeniably irreversible "improvement". Perhaps another online group of interested obsessives might be able to offer constructive opinions that you might find more acceptable? After many years on here, I am not surprised to read that the cognoscenti are opposed to replating.

As I said, I have no opinion one way or the other, and to support that I cite that you will find numerous folks on here that will say it's an instrument and should be played rather than be a (glass) case queen, so you can see why I am ambivalent, but it is also an ineluctable fact that (for the moment ...) you are the fortunate custodian of an instrument of historical importance. In just about any other narrow interest group I suspect that you'll receive the same cease and desist advice.

The foregoing is intended as impartially objective rather than rhetorical. If you're as old as I am then the instrument will very likely outlive you and bear the tell-tale "scars" of one sort or another, the nature of which will be in your hands.

I bet it sounds wonderful?

でつ e&oe ...

[Michael Messer]

Martin, welcome to our forum. If you were to plate that Silvo it would be done with nickel plating. NEVER WITH CHROME!

The difficult part would be the preparation, which would need to be treated like jewellery because every imperfection will show.

I have answered your question, but would I do it, absolutely not.

I hope that is helpful

Shine On
Michael

[Martin]

Jun 11, 2022 18:27:21 GMT bonzo said:

Maybe that big round black thing on the front of your guitar?

A) it's not a guitar. 
B) The big round black thing is Bakelite and never was plated, so there's no reason to worry about whether it will "match" the replated instrument.  

[snakehips]

Jun 11, 2022 18:05:33 GMT Martin said:

In addition to the wear, there is corrosion from an outgassed pickguard. Comments like "what about the cover plate?" lead me to suspect that you're not even doing the courtesy of looking at my photo.

The question here is what material should be used to replate, not whether to do it.

Of course I looked at the photo - not that it shows more than about half of instrument top and a little of the side.
I know what the Silvo coverplates are supposed to look like.

You are asking what material to replate it with ? Seriously ?
If you don't know the answer to that (it's nickel, by the way !), then perhaps you really should be taking the collective advice of all of us - as it is all well-meant AND good advice.

[Martin]

Jun 11, 2022 21:39:42 GMT snakehips said:

I know what the Silvo coverplates are supposed to look like.

Then why did you talk about replating it?

You are asking what material to replate it with ? Seriously ?

You're concerned about whether I would "replate" a Bakelite Silvo cover plate? Seriously?

Everyone gets things wrong from time to time, including you.

I had been led to believe these instruments were plated with "German silver" (a nickel alloy), not pure nickel. I don't recall quite how I formed that impression, but obviously it was inaccurate: it turns out German silver was used as a substrate on some of the earlier instruments, but not for plating.

perhaps you really should be taking the collective advice of all of us

I'll take it under advisement. The instrument in question has already suffered a sloppy attempt to customize it, and needs other repairs. I'm not too worried about preserving its collector value; that ship has sailed.

[Pickers Ditch]

Perhaps you would be kind enough to post some more pictures of the mandolin so that we may have a clearer understanding of the state of it after your comments above.

More specific advice could be forthcoming if we have a fuller picture.

Only trying to help.

Thanks, PD

[Michael Messer]

I may be wrong, but I don’t think any Silvo instruments were made of German silver. They are nickel plated brass bodies. I also can’t see the whole instrument, but what I can see looks to be in pretty good condition. The gassing under the scratch plate is common on many old Nationals and is nothing to worry about.

This thread is a little too confrontational for my liking and lacks some courtesy. We are not a free advice centre, this is a community of real people, some of which are authorities on the subject, that enjoy helping others and sharing their knowledge. I for one don’t take kindly to being ignored, having taken my time to welcome you to our forum and answer your question.

Shine On
Michael

[snakehips]

While it might seem we are on the attack, we are trying to steer you away from destroying your instrument for all eternity !

Are the straight & diagonal lines through the bakelite, on the coverplate, white bakelite, white paint, or are they exposed parts of the nickel-plated coverplate ?

I always assumed those lines were exposed metal (so would be an error on my part, absolutely, if I am wrong about this) - and THOSE are the bits of the coverplate I was referring to, to re-plate or not.
At no point was I trying to suggest you plate bakelite. That would be ridiculous !

Anyway, I always used the word “re-plate”. You can’t replate something that hasn’t been plated before !!

I was just suggesting that only re-plating SOME (instead of all) of the nickel-plated parts, would not look right.

The internet is full of disinformation - and unfortunately it has informed you incorrectly. German-Silver plating is not a thing.
National did nickel-plating firstly on their guitars (& some other instruments) made with German Silver (Tricones etc), then briefly Steel (circa mid 1930 Style O’s), then Brass (eg. Style O’s from late 1930and onwards).

I must admit, I always thought Silvo’s were made from nickel-plated German Silver - but National started using brass for some of their instuments that were normally German Silver, by the late 1930’s. Presumably a cost-saving thing.
Maybe all the Silvos are nickel-plated brass. There are not many of them though - and we still find “surprises” within the National brand - things that don’t quite fit the usual spec of any particular model & time-frame.