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Post by snakehips on Sept 29, 2020 7:39:15 GMT
Hi there !
Of the ones I have played, I didn't like the thin neck on the Bakelite necks - just as wide as other Nationals but thin from the underside of the neck to the surface of the fretboard. I think, Alex, you would come out through the underside, or nearly, if you tried to plane an upturned, banana'd Bakelite neck flat !!!
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Sept 29, 2020 8:51:29 GMT
Many years ago (early 1990s?) I was in Music Ground in Doncaster and spotted a Polychrome National stashed in a corner covered in dust.
My first encounter with a real live National so I asked if I could have a look.
Yup, it had a bakelite neck which had the worst bend I've ever seen, could have used it to great effect at Agincourt.
The owner of the emporium told me that the guitar was completely original, took the guitar in hand and bent the neck straight whilst holding it. Obviously, when he let go the neck returned to its banana configuration.
I was then told that his luthier could fix it, put a rod in it and make it playable. I could then have the fixed guitar for £550.
I passed on the deal but I've always wondered whatever happened to that particular guitar.
Anybody on here got it?
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 29, 2020 9:44:13 GMT
Alex, your suggestion has been tried. I don't think it's impossible, but the dangers of working with bakelite possibly make it an unviable proposition. I once drilled a hole in a bakelite guitar to fit a strap button and couldn't believe the brown acrid smoke that filled my house. It's dangerous stuff!
I had a a Rickenbacher Electro Spanish with a similar problem and decided to sell it as all original, rather than have it worked on just so I could play it.
There comes a time when the originality of the instrument is more important than the playability. If every antique item was refurbished to a useable spec, there wouldn't be much left.
PD, You did right to pass on that deal.
Shine On Michael
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Post by snakehips on Sept 29, 2020 12:22:27 GMT
If we retired out all the old unplayable Nationals because they were unplayable, or you didn't want to alter them (eg. drill holes to fit strap buttons, or route out a bigger hole in a 1133 Student Model, to fit a standard 9.5" cone) then there would be hardly any vintage Nationals left in playable condition for us all to enjoy. That would be more sad, in obviously my own personal opinion.
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 29, 2020 12:51:35 GMT
We have been down this route many times and I am not prepared to argue. There are certain things that should be preserved.
Let's jump sixty years forward and it's now the year 2080. I am a collector with an almost complete collection of original National guitars that were made in the 1920s, 30s and 40s, but the one thing I'm missing is a Triolian with a bakelite neck. I talk to my old friend, master luthier, dealer and collector, Alex Kirtley, and he tells me that "there was a time when you could find these instruments, but back when I was young it was more important to make original Nationals (which were already 80 and 90 year old antiques) into playable working tools. Those bakelite necks were never successful because they warped and over something like a twenty year period they were all converted into working instruments with wood necks. I wish I knew then what I know now because I would have hoarded a few to keep for posterity"
Shine On Michael
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Post by bonzo on Sept 29, 2020 13:44:05 GMT
Wot are you two like! Honestly I can see both points of view! (Other points of view are available)! Alex if I understand correctly does restore damaged/unplayable guitars to a usable condition. Booker Whites' guitar bought by a collector, maybe never to be seen or heard again. Everyone lives in their own time, we can still respect and enjoy craftsmanship from another time.......
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 29, 2020 16:33:05 GMT
Wot are you two like! Honestly I can see both points of view! (Other points of view are available)! Alex if I understand correctly does restore damaged/unplayable guitars to a usable condition. Booker Whites' guitar bought by a collector, maybe never to be seen or heard again. Everyone lives in their own time, we can still respect and enjoy craftsmanship from another time....... Best wishes to you all, John John, I was using Alex's name in a fictional way sixty years into the future. What we do and our attitudes towards preserving antiques when we are young are different to how we view things later. Certainly they are from my point of view. I speak from experience having toured constantly for years with valuable vintage instruments, which when I toured with them were not as vintage as they are now. In the not too distant future, Bukka White's "Hard Rock" guitar will be exhibited in all its glory for future generations to see and admire. I am sure on certain occasions and in the right environment it will be played. Best wishes to you too. Hope to catch up with you soon. Shine On Michael
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Post by bonzo on Sept 29, 2020 17:08:17 GMT
Good to hear from you Michael. Of course I realise you were using Alex as a fictional example, as was I. This discussion highlights a quandary many of us share, inside and outside of music. Example if I may. Does St Paul's stop being a Christopher Wren building once all the facia stones have been replaced, as they pretty much have been. Or would it keep its 'originality'as we watch it crumble before our eyes if nothing was done to preserve it? I think I feel the same as you do about guitars, Nationals in particular. Keep as much as is original as possible and conserve rather than replace. But I also think, and we may differ here, that unless you can make music with a guitar it's just a collection of wood metal and strings and becomes an ornament to hang on the wall. This is a topic best discussed over a pint, which I hope we can arrange in the not to distant future. Best wishes Michael, and to you all, John
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 29, 2020 18:03:50 GMT
To be fair, this discussion has become about guitars and antiques in general, rather than what I was commenting on earlier. My comments were specifically about taking a bakelite neck on a 1930s Triolian and fitting a wood fretboard, or a replacement neck. In both cases we would have a better playable guitar, but we would lose something that is becoming rarer and rarer as the years roll by. So in this case I would say that a bakelite neck Triolian should stay as what it is, especially if it is one in very nice condition. Once again I speak from experience, having ruined one 30 years ago by replacing the neck.
Shine On Michael
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Post by leeophonic on Sept 29, 2020 20:46:51 GMT
Alex working on a Bakelite neck is a brave thing to do, they are brittle as hell, they put them in ovens to try and make them more flexible but personally I would not risk it or waste my time, I have played a Bakelite triolian and accepted the high action confined it to what it was, a great slide guitar that needed to be left as is.
Lee
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Post by alexkirtley on Sept 30, 2020 9:22:19 GMT
Don’t go thinking I’m a perfectionist, my favourite guitars are the unplayable wrecks I’d actually quite like a Bakelite neck national someday if nothing else as an interesting wall hanger and slide only guitar, I’ve never seen one before, in fact I don’t think I’ve ever seen an original national before, maybe an early tricone square neck once, but the Bakelite necks on photos do look very cool
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Post by profscratchy on Sept 30, 2020 11:45:42 GMT
My ‘29 Triolian’s erstwhile bakelite neck...
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Post by Pickers Ditch on Sept 30, 2020 12:25:07 GMT
Alex working on a Bakelite neck is a brave thing to do, they are brittle as hell, they put them in ovens to try and make them more flexible but personally I would not risk it or waste my time, I have played a Bakelite triolian and accepted the high action confined it to what it was, a great slide guitar that needed to be left as is. Lee Putting Bakelite thermoset cured phenolic in ovens will not make 'em more flexible. If anything, they will heat degrade and become even "harder" and "crumblier".
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Post by gaucho on Oct 1, 2020 15:33:18 GMT
Interesting that Bukka's guitar would be mentioned in the context of this discussion. I always felt sad that he had it nickel plated at some point, feeling the original Duco in any condition would be preferable!😀
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Post by resotonic on Feb 15, 2021 2:27:31 GMT
Does the Bakelite neck also have a Bakelite fret board? The pictures I have seen show black fret board, no mottled spotting, with thin brass frets. If the fret board is molded as part of the neck, is it colored black after molding? If the fret board is seperate, could it not be replaced? DJ
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