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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 1, 2020 14:20:58 GMT
Thanks Michael can you give me a few recommendations of old CD players to look for please? Jono, my advice with any CD players from this period, is to buy a working one and then get it serviced by these guys - sstonline.co.uk - Speak to Pardy, he is a very knowledgeable man and my advice is to call Pardy and ask his advice before buying anything from anywhere. Pardy repairs this stuff and although a little cold when you first start speaking, get him warmed up and his advice is worth its weight in gold. The Denon DCD 1560 from 1991 is an amazing machine and like many of the players from this time they were built like military vehicles and in working order should last a lifetime. I have just had mine restored by Pardy and it sounds fantastic. I should say that it cost £350.00 to get it serviced and restored, but it was worth every penny. Another fine machine from a little earlier, 1989, is the Marantz CD60 and CD80. I had a CD60 and wish I hadn't parted with it, which must have been 15 years ago. Even the Pioneer and Technics CD players from that period were really good, but for me maybe not quite as good as those other brands. This was a golden era in CD player manufacturing, that unless you start spending a few grand, I don't believe you will get anything to touch them. Really good people to talk to are Audio Gold in Muswell Hill, North London. ( audiogold.co.uk ) They sell a massive range of vintage hifi and know their shit. Speak to Robin or Ben. Their website doesn't show their stock of used vintage CD players. Another good one is Hifi Hangar (https://www.hifihangar.co.uk) in Bordon. Don't bother with their eBay store, talk direct to them and visit the shop. Again, they know their stuff. I have never bought from them, but a good hifi freak friend of mine has bought loads of stuff from them. Most of the staff in so-called hifi shops, especially a well know English chain that claims it sells high quality hifi, know absolutely nothing about the type of sound you are looking for. I am sure other forum members have different opinions and that is all good and helps to make this a real forum where different viewpoints can be discussed. I hope that is helpful. Shine On Michael
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Post by jono1uk on Jan 1, 2020 14:55:35 GMT
Thanks Michael
I have my eyes on a Marantz CD63 MKII..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 15:22:08 GMT
Wise words MM.Can't go wrong with Denon or Marantz. Also highly recommend Audiogold.They're enthusiasts and it shows.
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Post by Stevie on Jan 1, 2020 15:58:02 GMT
OK guys and gals, settle in!
I have three decks. My old Technics direct drive developed a fault where the motor would vary in speed from time to time. Hunting down intermittent faults is soul destroying so I invested in a Rega Planar P2. Brilliant but it's a fag removing the platter to reconfigure the belt to spin a 7" (and then of course back again). The other deck (like the Technics- up in the loft) whilst of just reasonable quality was given to me by someone at work after I bought a Sony reel to reel tape deck from him. So significant that I can't even remember what it is, but I think it may be a Dual. I know it isn't a Garrard.
I had a Technics CD player at first but it started playing up. Hacked off with it, we visited a local white goods outlet with a very large and dedicated "hifi" section (not part of a chain but not a specialist retailer either.) The salesman played that Alanis Morrisette track without any backing music (I can't spell acapella!) through an Arcam deck and amp. Then he played it through the next higher tier of Arcam separates and began to hold forth about the extensive transparency of the sound stage. Pfft. I pointed out that after a lifetime in factories I could find no distinction and left thereafter with an undertaking to think it over. Outside the shop I promptly said to SWMBO that I'd get my boss's wife to get us some high end Sony stuff through Staff Sales. We picked a TAFA3ES amp. The ES series were of "Frame Beam" construction and like MM says- built like a Sherman. I had a fault a couple of years ago but I traced it to a dry joint on the audio out bus bars where they rise from the main PCB on their way to the loudspeaker terminals. The CD player was (is!) unique in so far as the whole transport comes out to change a disc. I had one problem with the display but I fixed it with a replacement diode. It's well worth buying Sony service manuals because they're in a league of their own.
Interconnects? Don't get me started. I read all the sh1te in the monthlies, even "Gramophone" and decided to limit the cash hemorrhage to £50. I bought some £50 interconnects to bridge the CD and amp (Not doing that again.) I bought bi-wire cable for the loudspeakers and configured the crossover links accordingly. Horse feathers. QED 76 strand in preference to "bell wire" sure, but bi-wiring? Streuth. I still have the bi-wire cables but only because I paid hard-earned Shekels for them. They're so stupidly bulky I had to route them beneath the suspended timber floor boards. I consider myself fortunate that I called time on all that nonsense whilst still only in for about £120. My point is I tried it so I'm qualified to hold an opinion (which is all any of it is at the end of the day?)
Vinyl? We have around 500 LPs and a couple of hundred 7". We still have the lot. Only two years ago, I had a cabinet custom made for all the separates and the vinyl deck because I refused to give up on the vinyl. I rarely play any LPs though. When I first got a CD player, I went down the no doubt familiar route of buying all my faves again. I heard hundreds of almost ethereal details that I had simply never heard on vinyl. I don't believe it's purely down to the quality of reproduction hardware. I also "discovered" lots of music where I'd only ever played one side of an LP!
CDs? we did have around 500 but had a throw out of about 100 a couple of years ago. One victim that I recall was indeed "Graceland" ... I cannot see me throwing out any vinyl in a similar fashion!
Let's not discuss having to pay more back in the 1980s for the same intellectual property on CD than I'd already paid for on vinyl, and the current complete reverse situation with the self same intellectual property being punted out yet again more expensively than CD. I reckon I've paid my dues to the creators of the music I love(d) over and over.
I'm sorry for being a Philistine about vinyl. I just feel like Danny Kaye (look at the king, look at the king- the king, the king, the king.) I'll readily accept that anyone may subjectively prefer the actual sound of vinyl, however it would not be possible to carry out a double blind test because even the very best equipment would just reveal the inherent short comings of the analogue system so no "blindness" would be actually be possible. I too cannot build up the enthusiasm for hoisting myself out of the listening chair every eighteen minutes or so.
Compressed audio is barely worth discussing. Inside a car maybe- only a mug would take out a mortgage on in car entertainment from a number of unrelated standpoints.
Has the kettle boiled yet? ;<D
e&oe ...
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Post by bonzo on Jan 1, 2020 17:06:32 GMT
Hi Steve, I thought everyone ran their cables underfloor! And you should have got some decent cables for £120 a metre! Vinyl reproduction on a high end system is an amazing experience. Yes there are more convenient ways of music playback, I use a 1990's micromega duo transport and pro dac, stunning! Change the front end to a loaded up Linn through the same system, valve pre amp , solid state 1980's Brit power mono blocks and WOW. It's not something that you have to think about it's just noticeably different. (Better). As Michael has mentioned you do better with good size quality speakers, you do want to move some air after all! I have spent 30 years putting my current system together and have used a lot of gear doing so, including the aforementioned CD 60 player. I always had help and advice from top people in the hi fi world and if a piece of kit didn't live up to expectations, (which did happen) then back it would go! I'm only saying all this as a way of letting you know that I'm not a vinyl revivalist but am a vinyl junkie which was Jono's original question! Vinyl forever, the faffing about is worth it. I do own a 1000 or so CD's that I play regularly by the way, because lets not forget it is all about the MUSIC!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by bonzo on Jan 1, 2020 18:09:43 GMT
Not to go on about but I really do LOVE vinyl analogue playback!
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 1, 2020 18:38:18 GMT
Interestingly, I know very few musicians or recording engineers that prefer hearing vinyl to high quality digital. In fact I am not sure that I know any. I do know many musicians that due to their age have large collections of both formats. This makes an interesting read... wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)There is one thing for sure - great hifi sounds GREAT whatever format it is playing. Shine On Michael
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Post by dunvettin on Jan 1, 2020 19:04:54 GMT
I've used these guys for spares for my Linn LP12 deck that I bought as part of a Linn system 30 years ago. They seem to know their onions and send me regular newsletters. Trouble is my tinnitus prevents me from discerning differences in sound quality now. www.russandrews.comCheers Tim
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Post by bonzo on Jan 1, 2020 19:10:07 GMT
On the other hand I have musician friends whose vinyl albums I own that love to hear their stuff when they come to visit! I know the article you refer to Michael, I quickly re read it with my salt cellar handy! Lol! I'd like to continue this chat over a pint and a hot turntable sometime!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by bonzo on Jan 1, 2020 19:25:23 GMT
Hi Tim, the guys at decent audio seem to be among the chosen few that deal with Van den Hull. They sent my Frog off for a rebuild and retip after probably 15 years service. Ray at Graham's Hi Fi (again rare to get someone to work on a Linn turntable) installed the cartridge and serviced the deck, plus a wiring upgrade and I was good to go! Had a delightful few days oohing and aahing every time I put a record on!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by Stevie on Jan 1, 2020 19:37:24 GMT
It does indeed make an interesting read. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to get flamboozled by lots of technical stuff that may even be deliberate feldegarb that we lack the earth years or the will to research. In other words- we take it for granted. I know I do! That said, the article has lots of citations which hopefully afford confidence in the text. However, right near the end there is a statement that it is fiction that direct drives cause the speed to hunt and peck. (this wavering of velocity can be seen readily if you look at two ducted fans in series). I know this to be incorrect. I not only heard the gradual whiney up and down speed / pitch, I could plainly see it on the strobe ring. I was prompted to buy another deck because Technics or not, it wasn't even worth getting it looked at, rspecially sonce it was an intermittent experience. I hesitate to call BS but it does make me circumspect just a little about the rest of the statements. You see I'm unfairly not drawing a distinction between a mechanical fault and an artifact that may even need measuring instruments to detect. Bookmarked though- a keeper to refer others to! Great link thanks MM.
e&oe ...
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Post by bonzo on Jan 1, 2020 20:01:38 GMT
Steve, hear hear hear when it comes to direct drive turntables. I thought that was a subject that wasn't even up for discussion anymore. They have their uses, scratching and instant speed among them, I've owned a couple. But once you get into serious turntables with musical playback as the main aim, the direct drives soon fall by the wayside. There are other areas in that article that I think would inspire lively discussion!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by bonzo on Jan 1, 2020 20:20:18 GMT
Sorry Jono, wandered a bit away from vinyl! In your search for the stuff beware of any album that has 'electronically altered for stereo' or 'digitally remastered' anywhere on the sleeve. Neither of these processes improve the sound, in fact the opposite is the case. I recommend a visit to the Portobello road market on a Saturday or Sunday, around where the flyover crosses at Cambridge gardens. Great stalls and an excellent shop that has recently opened. All have a good selection of used vinyl in a wide selection of genres. You also can get 180grm pressing of quite a few, sometimes surprising artists. Quite a few nice nosh stalls as well!
Best wishes to you all, John
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 1, 2020 21:00:45 GMT
Another part of the problem is shit digital remasters of great albums. When an album is reissued in any format it should not be screwed around with by someone on a computer that thinks they know better than the original mastering engineer. This happens all too often. The amount of rereleases that I have cast aside because they have been ruined is just too many. One of the main problems with CDs is that in some areas of music there is a loudness war going on and to achieve that you have to squash the sound. Making a vinyl master is different because you can't do that, you are forced into having to work with natural dynamics. That does not mean that all CDs are like that, but some are. We are talking about high quality digital, not low quality mp3s and streaming sites. Spotify and Amazon Prime compress the files beyond what I consider acceptable. Amazon Prime sounds terrible, everything is thin and dull. So if we are comparing vinyl to anything from a streaming site there is absolutely no contest. When I listen to my own recordings on these sites I am amazed at what has happened to them in the compression process. It can completely alter the dynamics of a recording.
I still like analogue recording for making records, but I have no problem with it being converted to a digital format by a really good mastering engineer.
Shine On Michael
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Post by jono1uk on Jan 1, 2020 21:27:54 GMT
Thanks for pitching in guys!! Michael what is your opinion of the "cleaned up" RJ stuff The Centennial collection?
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