Went to see a 14-fret neck Duolian for sale recently
Sept 4, 2019 12:26:58 GMT
bonzo and blinddrunk like this
Post by snakehips on Sept 4, 2019 12:26:58 GMT
Hi there !
I'm not selling a National - so this isn't an advert
I went to see a 14-fret neck green duco Duolian this week, that is for sale in Edinburgh.
The seller is a friend of the owner who has passed away, and he is selling it (and other instruments) for money for the widow.
He took it to our local guitar shop - and they phoned ME, as they know next to nothing about vintage Nationals.
It looked pretty standard 14 fret Duolian from the initial pictures sent to me, except the headstock decal wasn't original, and with quite high action, it would no doubt need a neck reset at least.
So, I went to see the guitar.
The neck didn't quite feel right - wrong feel and colour of finish - too transparent actually, so the fretboard and neck were more obviously different colours, despite the fretboard definitely looking v old/original.
The neck had a C-shape profile quite thick, and the neck heel wasn't quite the right shape. The narrowest part of the heel was about right but then it got much wider in the upper half. Kind of heart shaped, in cross-section, instead of V-shaped, as expected (I've got two 14-fret Duolians to compare. The fretboard dots and wood around them were immacualte - all of them except the ones on the fretboard extension.
So, finally, it dawned on me that the neck on this Duolian was highly likely to have been a squareneck originally.
The wood of the fretboard around the fretboard-extension dots had dings in them, were the dots were obviously shoe-horned out with a screwdriver or something similar.
The neck must have then been taken off and sanded down into a fat C-shape profile roundneck, removing all the finish (except possibly the front of the headstock).
The neck was obviously refinished - and a new headstock decal sourced.
There was no trace on the duco finish where the original squareneck heel would have been covering it, being a different colour, or any marks on the duco finish showing the outline of the original heel shape - which is largely why I didn't jump instantly to the conclusion it had been a squareneck.
The decal was identified quickly by Mark Makin, upon me sending him a picture via email, as a copy of the early green decals used on early Tricones. Mark even knew the name of the guy that made the reproduction decals about 20yrs ago !
I expect the neck was converted to a roundneck at that time, or at an earlier time as the non-original thin neck finish was worn on the back of the neck to bare wood. This was probably all done before the recently deceased last owner had the guitar - and he quite probably didn't know it was a converted squareneck.
Also, as pointed out by Mark Makin, the non-prefix serial number of the guitar was bang right in the middle of a list of serial numbers that were mostly squarenecks, as some others listed as converted from squarenecks - so the chances are v high this was originally a squareneck.
It does have the original cone though (with embossed radial lines around the edge of the cone) - and sounded in decent condition. It was difficult to assess it more though, as it had thin electric guitar strings on it, v old and v dull, AND it is currently set up as a left-handed player !
This guitar definitely needs a neck reset and possibly the neck straightened (heat press) (and perhaps a new fretboard and/or truss rod).
The seller was hoping for a minimum of £1500 for the guitar, but considering the neck conversion and it being refinished, and the duco feeling a bit flaky, I wouldn't think it was worth more than £1000 as is (probably £300-600 will need to be spent on it to get it into optimum condition).
I don't think this guitar needs avoided like the plaqgue - but I relate this story for two good reasons :
1. The whole process discovering this guitar is a squareneck conversion is interesting and gives food for thought for others if and when they are ever looking at a buying vintage National, what perhaps to look out for.
2. I want to let anyone considering buying THIS guitar to be sure what they are looking at. Just remember it's the one with the green decal !
I think it could still be a great wee National, with "mojo", for a player desperate to get their hands on a vintage National, but are not bothered much how original it is. Heck, it still looks good, and with the original cone, and expert luthier work, it should sound and play great for many decades to come.
If anyone is interested, I can direct you to the buyer.
I declined to buy. I was gonna sell one of my two 14-fret Duolians, if this one turned out to be better.
I'd definitely consider buying it at £1000, but no more (considering the amount of money that would be needed spent on it to sort the neck angle issues). At the minimum £1500 that the guy wants, by the time you pay a v good luthier to sort out the neck, the money spent could quite probably buy an all-original National.
I'm not selling a National - so this isn't an advert
I went to see a 14-fret neck green duco Duolian this week, that is for sale in Edinburgh.
The seller is a friend of the owner who has passed away, and he is selling it (and other instruments) for money for the widow.
He took it to our local guitar shop - and they phoned ME, as they know next to nothing about vintage Nationals.
It looked pretty standard 14 fret Duolian from the initial pictures sent to me, except the headstock decal wasn't original, and with quite high action, it would no doubt need a neck reset at least.
So, I went to see the guitar.
The neck didn't quite feel right - wrong feel and colour of finish - too transparent actually, so the fretboard and neck were more obviously different colours, despite the fretboard definitely looking v old/original.
The neck had a C-shape profile quite thick, and the neck heel wasn't quite the right shape. The narrowest part of the heel was about right but then it got much wider in the upper half. Kind of heart shaped, in cross-section, instead of V-shaped, as expected (I've got two 14-fret Duolians to compare. The fretboard dots and wood around them were immacualte - all of them except the ones on the fretboard extension.
So, finally, it dawned on me that the neck on this Duolian was highly likely to have been a squareneck originally.
The wood of the fretboard around the fretboard-extension dots had dings in them, were the dots were obviously shoe-horned out with a screwdriver or something similar.
The neck must have then been taken off and sanded down into a fat C-shape profile roundneck, removing all the finish (except possibly the front of the headstock).
The neck was obviously refinished - and a new headstock decal sourced.
There was no trace on the duco finish where the original squareneck heel would have been covering it, being a different colour, or any marks on the duco finish showing the outline of the original heel shape - which is largely why I didn't jump instantly to the conclusion it had been a squareneck.
The decal was identified quickly by Mark Makin, upon me sending him a picture via email, as a copy of the early green decals used on early Tricones. Mark even knew the name of the guy that made the reproduction decals about 20yrs ago !
I expect the neck was converted to a roundneck at that time, or at an earlier time as the non-original thin neck finish was worn on the back of the neck to bare wood. This was probably all done before the recently deceased last owner had the guitar - and he quite probably didn't know it was a converted squareneck.
Also, as pointed out by Mark Makin, the non-prefix serial number of the guitar was bang right in the middle of a list of serial numbers that were mostly squarenecks, as some others listed as converted from squarenecks - so the chances are v high this was originally a squareneck.
It does have the original cone though (with embossed radial lines around the edge of the cone) - and sounded in decent condition. It was difficult to assess it more though, as it had thin electric guitar strings on it, v old and v dull, AND it is currently set up as a left-handed player !
This guitar definitely needs a neck reset and possibly the neck straightened (heat press) (and perhaps a new fretboard and/or truss rod).
The seller was hoping for a minimum of £1500 for the guitar, but considering the neck conversion and it being refinished, and the duco feeling a bit flaky, I wouldn't think it was worth more than £1000 as is (probably £300-600 will need to be spent on it to get it into optimum condition).
I don't think this guitar needs avoided like the plaqgue - but I relate this story for two good reasons :
1. The whole process discovering this guitar is a squareneck conversion is interesting and gives food for thought for others if and when they are ever looking at a buying vintage National, what perhaps to look out for.
2. I want to let anyone considering buying THIS guitar to be sure what they are looking at. Just remember it's the one with the green decal !
I think it could still be a great wee National, with "mojo", for a player desperate to get their hands on a vintage National, but are not bothered much how original it is. Heck, it still looks good, and with the original cone, and expert luthier work, it should sound and play great for many decades to come.
If anyone is interested, I can direct you to the buyer.
I declined to buy. I was gonna sell one of my two 14-fret Duolians, if this one turned out to be better.
I'd definitely consider buying it at £1000, but no more (considering the amount of money that would be needed spent on it to sort the neck angle issues). At the minimum £1500 that the guy wants, by the time you pay a v good luthier to sort out the neck, the money spent could quite probably buy an all-original National.