Tricone/ Don/ Etc Map

[jromano23]

I received Mark’s wonderful book over the holidays and spent a good part of the afternoon with it. While I’m a fan of all the early models, I’m particularly interested in roundneck tricones and specialty models like Dons and early N’s with the tricone headstocks due to their sound, the endless hunt, and historical context. These were expensive instruments (still are unfortunately) and many great stories and personalities are associated with them. As rare as these are, I’m amazed at the documentation available on so many.

With that said, does anyone have a sense of how many are left to be found? While probably not possible, I’d love to see a map of where all the known models first surfaced along with any known provenance. Trying to get a sense of how many are in collectors vaults and how many are still in attics and under beds.

Thanks,

Joey

[snakehips]

Hi there !

Wouldn’t we all !

[pete1951]

Feb 17, 2018 3:03:44 GMT jromano23 said:

With that said, does anyone have a sense of how many are left to be found? While probably not possible, I’d love to see a map of where all the known models first surfaced along with any known provenance. Trying to get a sense of how many are in collectors vaults and how many are still in attics and under beds.

Thanks,

Joey

I think similar things have been suggested on the forum before.
Some might be reluctant to give an address where a number of very expensive guitars are kept.
As to numbers still out there, Marks book has a list of serial numbers, I guess total shipping amounts can be worked out??

[jromano23]

I’m thinking more generally. As the music business was so regional in the early days of recording, I’m curious if more turned up on the coasts or around Chicago, hubs for professional musicians. The other aspect is the wide range of genres they appear in from blues to country flat pickers to jazzmen, much like the 16” L5. At such a high cost, it’s culturally and geographically interesting to think where these were “found” and ended up. While people go nuts for bursts and such, I find the National story and hunt so much more compelling.

[jromano23]

It seems like they all went in hiding at some time in the 30s and only started peaking out in the late 60s to recently. I bet the internet sure has changed things...

[Michael Messer]

Hi Joe,

Welcome back to the forum. Haven't seen you for a while.

I think you will find that Mark explains about numbers in his book. The Internet has completely changed things in many ways, but to my knowledge, possibly most of the very rare and special Nationals turned up before we all got ourselves online. A few that spring to mind are... the Harry Watson Tricone, the Beauchamp guitar, the Special Presentation mandolin #515, various Dons I know of....Roy Book Binder, Steve Phillips, Colin McCubbin, the 12 string Havana, 133 square neck Tricone, the Aloha, all turned up before we had the Internet. In some ways it was easier because less people were searching. Now everyone has access to every guitar that is for sale and that makes the chase a little less interesting, well for me it does. There is nothing very sporting or tenacious about sitting at home and outbidding everyone with your credit card to become the owner of a rare instrument. Compare that to driving across the country to meet someone that knows someone that said they had a shiny guitar under the bed that might have been owned by a famous blues musician. Then when you get there they are out, so you have to hang around all day and eventually when you do get in the house you find that they have actually got two National guitars, both of which they will let go for very little money.

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

Feb 17, 2018 15:27:39 GMT Michael Messer said:

eventually when you do get in the house you find that they have actually got two National guitars, both of which they will let go for very little money.

Shine On
Michael

That's an interesting point.
I'm certain you are a very fair man when it comes to such deals (citation needed )
But should a person find themselves in this situation, what should you tell the owner, or is it 'fair game'?
TT

[Michael Messer]

Feb 17, 2018 15:45:11 GMT @deuce said:

Feb 17, 2018 15:27:39 GMT Michael Messer said:

eventually when you do get in the house you find that they have actually got two National guitars, both of which they will let go for very little money.

Shine On
Michael

That's an interesting point.
I'm certain you are a very fair man when it comes to such deals (citation needed )
But should a person find themselves in this situation, what should you tell the owner, or is it 'fair game'?
TT

TT, the problem is that it doesn't really happen anymore. My example was based on a few true stories from the old days. I think the answer to your question has many variables... who is the seller, should they be aware of its value, are they a guitar dealer, what is the guitar, how much are they asking, can you keep a straight face while paying a few quid for a rare and valuable piece.... etc.

This happened to me with one of Europe's best known vintage guitar dealers at the time. I got it cheap, but still paid more than anyone had ever paid for a National at the time. What I paid was a fraction of its true value and the dealer never forgave me. Even now, nearly 30 years on, when we meet there is an atmosphere that you could cut with a knife! What was I to do... tell him how to deal in his own area of expertise, or shut up and get the guitar? FYI >I don't have it anymore. FFS >I wish I did!

I have helped people to get what a guitar is really worth because they didn't know. So I have played it both ways.

These situations are much rarer these days because the Internet has allowed everyone to access information.

Shine On
Michael

[Deleted]

I think like most on the forum I would feel compelled to tell a private seller who didn't know what they had a guitar's true value. In the case of a dealer I'm sure I could find some way to justify keeping schtum. Manny Charlton of Nazareth got his black Les Paul in exchange for a washing machine apparently. Hope it had a spin dryer.

[creolian]

Hello fellow seekers,

I used to travel a lot for work, and leisure time on the road was either spent sampling local cuisine ( barbecue) or going to the pawn and thrift stores looking for " the one." Maybe a lack of interest on my part, but I just don't recall seeing many resonators and less than a handful of old Nationals... Particularly in the south. For whatever reason, it seems they were all west of the river... My EH150 came from a place in the middle of nowhere Colorado.

now that I have reso fever, I know there is one out there with my name on it and it's just a matter of patience, saving some spendoolies and not ffing up my Karma by treating others less ethically than I want to be treated myself... Over the 40 something years I've been buying and selling guitars, I've been lucky enough to have owned pretty much every guitar I've lusted for.

One thing certain. If an old National ever finds me, it's gonna sing.

If I can ever find that guy who before Katrina, sold his Bcue from a trailer spit in Waveland Ms, ima gonna sing

All best, Jeff

[Michael Messer]

Feb 17, 2018 16:13:00 GMT @graeme said:

I think like most on the forum I would feel compelled to tell a private seller who didn't know what they had a guitar's true value. In the case of a dealer I'm sure I could find some way to justify keeping schtum. Manny Charlton of Nazareth got his black Les Paul in exchange for a washing machine apparently. Hope it had a spin dryer.

Graeme, I have done that many times. I get approached by someone that thinks their guitar might be of interest to me, or that I might know about it, and I advise them about how to get the guitar's true value.

The situation that happened to me with that guitar dealer many years ago, was extreme. He was a big time dealer and he told me exactly what it was and what it was worth, the fact that he was so wrong that it was laughable, was not something I could ignore. The guitar ended up in a bidding battle between me and a couple of other people, but I was the only one that had actually seen it. So they dropped out because they thought it was something other than what it was.

Shine On
Michael

[bonzo]

Hi guys, interesting stuff. When buying from a dealer and your knowledge is greater, then all bets are off IMHO. When dealing with a kindred spirit it's a different matter, I don't think any of us would take advantage of someone who was trying to be genuine. Most of us would say 'are you happy with that price' after negotiating and if the answer is yes everyone goes home happy. If occasionally dealers get it wrong and our knowledge enables us to get a good deal I think the swings and roundabouts principle applies.
Best wishes to you all, John

[ricks]

Hi Joey, my early-'31 roundneck Style 1 I found in sad & unloved state languishing in a shop some years ago; I had it restored & with ( sadly necessary ) new hotrod cones, it's become a fine instrument - what was interesting, in the case with it was a whole slew of lapsteel sheet music ( mostly spirituals/hawaiian ), with the owner's name, Ellsworth Lloyd, & a location somewhere in Texas, as I recall. It certainly added to the mystique/romance of the guitar, wondering how Mr Lloyd would have sounded, playing his worship music on it - 'fraid it's not quite so sanctified-sounding nowadays!

[jromano23]

Thanks for the great discussion here. I think Michael is spot on about how the internet has changed things. In some ways it’s great to have so much info and access, but in other ways it makes most of these instruments out of reach due to the market and expanded audience. It sounds funny, but one must have to do the digital version of driving across country and find the less traveled corners of the internet for finds, where you don’t have the advantage of holding the guitar and checking it out. I found a wonderful players grade ‘30 style 1 on a forum board that came in a Calton case. It came with a great story of being a birthday gift for a young girl in the Midwest in ‘31. The headstock has a beautiful hand painted design that looks old. The neck has been slimmed and dots added to the binding; I can’t help but think these were measures made to make it more playable for its recipient as the mods look old. Any other such stories to share?

As for the industry, how do you think Nationals will fare with future generations. I read an interesting article last year about the declining state of vintage electric guitars, as boomers get older and most young people can’t afford or aren’t interested in the guitars that defined the 50s and 60s. On the other hand, the acoustic market has blossomed with a growing number of boutique builders to supplement the getting out of reach vintage market. Also, there are more obvious sonic benefits with acoustic instruments. Where do you see the vintage tricones and such going in the next few decades. While a smaller niche perhaps, I think it’s a deep one for those that catch the bug. The new reissues and such have to help keep the momentum going I’d think. Thoughts welcome!

[creolian]

I think you are correct in that the demographic is shrinking... I'm afraid that might be moot in regards to old and rare Nationals in that these days there are those who " invest" in and own more guitars than they will ever actually play.

At least here in Murika, the near collapse of financial markets in 2008 caused collectible guitar prices to plummet. From what I'm seeing, prices have somewhat rebounded and are currently stagnant. Many nice guitars with top dollar asking prices are remaining unsold.

On gbase one can find some nice nationals ( including a Don ) from a vendor by the name of Kummers... At top dollar prices, most of these have been for sale for at least the last 6 months.

Lawd help us if Taylor Swift ever has her picture taken playing one