Flat third tuned down below 440?

[jodygc50]

Can someone explain why F#, the flatted third in Open D, sounds better tuned down a bit flat below 440? 
I haven't been able to find an answer out there in Google-land.
Thanks,
Jody

[creolian]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament

This might help explain but to be honest I have a tough time getting my head wrapped around the concept other than knowing when I hear something that sounds off and tweaking turnings, usually when switching keys in standard tuning.

[jodygc50]

Hi Creolian - 

Here's a lap slide sample video that goes over the slightly flat-flat 3rd - beginning at around :50 seconds. I can clearly hear the difference in his - and my own - tuning process. I was just wondering why it works that way. I think your link to Temperament and Just Tuning gets at the the answer and it seems not to be a simple one. Have a good New Year!

www.lessonswithtroy.com/Intonation-Playing-In-Tune-for-Dobro.html

[Deleted]

On a lot of those old blues videos / recordings, the guitars sound a bit 'out of tune'. Is it deliberate, or even 'expertly' tuned incorrectly? (danged if I can do it!). Maybe the strength of the song means it doesn't have to be in tune? Or maybe just a case of a rotten guitar?
There's some young black guy on youtube etc who seems to deliberately play tuned 'incorrectly'. I have mixed feelings - I don't particularly like his playing, although he's a good singer and sounds 'authentic'. I dunno - if it was a white guy, I'd say 'ugh, tune up!'. What does that make me??
Either way, I try and tune as best as I can...
TT
edit: In fact, I recently DID say to some white guy who posted a FB song to 'tune up', mainly because he'd bigged himself up (and it was horrible), and the same black guy took a potshot at me, and was then really OTT-luvvy to this guy. All a bit too confusing for me...
TT

[slide496]

I think besides being a different note, it creates a different harmonic against the other strings. Interesting that you can't tune down another string in vestapol for a similar effect, its just the f#.

[jodygc50]

Iin my previous posts I said a " slightly flat flatted third"" and should have said "slightly flat third". I've been playing in Open Dm recently and had that in mind. I haven't tried it yet but suspect the same might be true for the B (third) in Open G.

[slide496]

I think that B is the one they tune down similarly in open g - I'll revise my post.

[pete1951]

I recall Sun House was said to do this.
PT
I keep my guitar 'in tune' but often play the flattened 3rd flat.

[Michael Messer]

This is a topic that requires much discussion, because tuning at the level you are asking about is a personal thing. I have seen Troy's tuition videos and I respect him and his work. He is a fine player and teacher, but I do not believe that you can make a mark on an electronic tuner to achieve what Troy is trying to demonstrate. To my ears, when he demonstrates the flattened third done on a tuner, it is out of tune.

Tuning a guitar out of tune to achieve an effect is something that folk musicians have done forever. Sometimes, like Son House for example, it can be used to great effect. But, when listening to Son House thwacking away on his intentionally out of tune guitar, just consider the extraordinary power and skill of his vocal delivery. Without that it would just sound terrible. My late friend, Louisiana Red, used to tune his guitar 'off' to get an old school delta sound, and it really worked, but again his voice and vocal delivery were so strong that he could have sung over a cat meowing and it would have sounded cool.

In Indian classical music they have ragas for certain times of the day; morning ragas, afternoon ragas, early evening, late evening....etc. If the same scale is played for a morning and an evening raga for example, the essential difference is how certain notes in the scale are played; right on the note, slightly flat of the note, slightly sharp of the note etc. This is exactly the same thing as we are discussing, but rather than just saying 'oh I tune my third slightly flat', Indian classical musicians have understood, refined and written down how this works. It is very subtle, but the difference is very effective. I believe that we as blues and folk musicians use this all the time, but without realising it. It is the reason that BB KIng's note bending hits us in one place and Albert King's note bending hits us in another. We call it 'feel', but in fact it is a way of playing around with the notes, making them slightly sharper or flatter. I know I often bang on about how Indian musicians do their thing, but I do believe that their music is very closely related to blues, jazz, and other improvised musical styles. They are trained to improvise and use their instinct, which is something that we as blues musicians all do, but there is no proper formal training yet.

You see what I mean, it is a BIG topic that we could discuss for hours.

Gotta go..... to be continued!

Shine On
Michael

[jodygc50]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Michael. It's interesting that Troy's tuning sounds out of tune to your ears and, for mine, it sounds much more "in tune." I've noticed too that (to my ear ) playing the F# note with a slide at the 4h fret of the high D string sounds better - but maybe it's just, blusier.. I was hoping for a short, easy answer to the original question. So much for expectations...

[Pickers Ditch]

Dec 28, 2017 18:55:15 GMT Michael Messer said:

They are trained to improvise and use their instinct, which is something that we as blues musicians all do, but there is no proper formal training yet.

Shine On
Michael

Please, please, please do not allow "proper formal training" for what we call blues.

Please don't go there.

OK, show 'em the tricks and ideas a la Pocklington but formal training? Really?

There are too many people out there already who use tab and the like claiming that they play blues.

[Michael Messer]

PD, I think it is already happening. It started when Stefan Grossman published tuition books in the 70s. There are now rules about how to play blues in certain styles and while I may not agree with it, a hundred years from now the music we all grew up on and love, blues, jazz, folk, rock, reggae, rap, etc, will be classed as classical music and will be taught in a formal way. I don't see how that can be avoided, and in a way I don't think it should be. Just look at how many young kids turn up on Youtube that can play a guitar in the same way as the greats. They may not have the feel, but they can move their fingers around the fretboard as well as any adult rock star could and can. I see that as the beginning of it becoming a formalised classical art form. When we started playing there was no way you could get lessons ANYWHERE for blues slide guitar, or any kind of blues for that matter. Now, look at the difference today, people go to college to learn about it.

As I said.....BIG subject! :-)

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

In addition.... the reason I like to teach in the way I do at our Pocklington sessions, is because sitting in a circle and playing together, is as close as we can get to sitting around a campfire and jamming all night.

Shine On
Michael

[Michael Messer]

Jodygc50, I tend to tune my guitar exactly in tune and then adjust one or two to give equal temperament. I then play very flattened thirds and sevenths when I am playing blues. I have always played blues in that way, long before I knew anything about flattened thirds and sevenths. That's what I was saying about 'feel' or whatever it is, we all have our own approach to it.

Shine On
Michael.

[Pickers Ditch]

Michael, I hear what you're saying and you used the word "feel".

Feel is what I find missing with the technically brilliant youngsters of today - Feel and Dynamics and over production.

I guess I'm getting old and look back on the days of being so lucky to see the greats live and listening to vinyl on Dansettes.

Ho hum! Bah! Humbug!

BIIIIG SUBJECT!