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Post by anolanbfg on Jan 20, 2014 22:35:24 GMT
Hi,
Although I've played guitar since I was 14, I've only just started learning how to play separate lines with my thumb and fingers and well.....I can't do it (yet). I could maybe give the video below as an example of what I mean. I know this is subjective but is there anything that helped any of you get the hang of this? At the moment I can't get my head around it and I'm stuck. How do people learn how to do this? Any words of wisdom appreciated, I know it's just practice but does anyone have anything they could suggest trying?
Many thanks,
Alan
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Post by bod on Jan 21, 2014 6:02:28 GMT
You could try learning and playing the 2 lines separately, as well as together. Play each one on its own and then play it and hum / sing the other, or get a friend to play the other, swap them around and so on (this seems to help me hear and play each of the parts while hearing and playing the whole, so to speak. This also seems to me to make it easier to change one without having to change the other).
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Post by uatru on Jan 21, 2014 6:46:28 GMT
I am in exactly the same position as you in that I've been playing for 40 years but only 3 months ago started to learn finger picking and some slide. You are right - hard isn't the word for it, and it takes hours of practice to move forward slightly. I found someone to give me lessons, and he said to learn the piece one bar at a time making sure that you get the bass rhythm right. That means just working on each cluster of notes at a time and that does work. Just hope I start to speed up! Good luck!
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Post by eggy on Jan 21, 2014 8:31:17 GMT
For me I would try to learn some simple fingerpicking pattern for your picking hand.This is before learning harder tunes.Just do pattern without chording strings until it feel natural for you.Should get finger and thumb seperated.Then start on tunes.Many years back when beginning I was shown some very simple picking pattern that were very helpful.If used as regular exercises they should help very much.
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 21, 2014 9:16:41 GMT
Hi Alan,
Eggy is right, the only way is to start off playing really simple patterns, and I mean REALLY SIMPLE! For example, get the thumb playing a really simple one open string rhythm and maybe count it out as ....1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 and then add an open top string note with your first finger and repeat that until is becomes automatic, and then build on that with your second finger, so that you have a thumb and two finger pattern on the open strings. Don't worry about the left hand until your right hand starts to be able to pick.
You can practice these picking patterns with and without a guitar and as with all musical instruments and techniques, the only way is to do it over and over until it becomes automatic. Repetitive patterns over and over again. Much like pianists and drummers, it is a coordination thing that just takes a long time to implant into the brain. It is not difficult, but it does take a lot of practice and determination. That pattern Doc Watson is playing is not complicated, but what you are seeing and hearing is the result of fifty years practice.
Shine On Michael
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Post by anolanbfg on Jan 21, 2014 10:22:26 GMT
Hi Guys It's really tough on the brain/ hand co ordination thing, I haven't played anything I've found this hard, complete mental block. Simple lines sound good and build from there, thanks for all the advice. I've only recently discovered Doc Watson but his playing has completely blown me away. He makes it look effortless (but I get what you're saying about the 50 years practice, that helps) I'd love to find someone who can do this to learn from but I've never run into anyone. All of this stuff has me really inspired, slide, flatpicking... If you can suggest any patterns that helped you in the beginning Eggy that would be great thanks
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Post by Michael Messer on Jan 21, 2014 11:03:21 GMT
Hi Alan,
To begin with, dampen the strings with your left hand so that there are no notes, just dead strings, and with your right hand start playing percussive patterns and only use two strings, the low and high E strings. Try to think like a drummer, the thumb holds time like a bass drum and the first finger adds accents. Keep it simple and only concentrate on the picking, not the chords or melodies.
Good luck!
Shine On Michael
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Post by bod on Jan 21, 2014 11:38:53 GMT
Hi Alan, disregard my earlier post (above), I misunderstood quite what you were asking about!
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Post by slide496 on Jan 21, 2014 12:08:11 GMT
Hi Guys It's really tough on the brain/ hand co ordination thing, I haven't played anything I've found this hard, complete mental block. I agree. I play a little in this style and learned when I was 16 or so. I tested freight train in an earlier post on the APOGEE, last clip. I put the guitar down until near retirement and what I found was the songs I had learned at an early age were easy to reclaim and play to speed - this type of music is lively. But I find learning new chord and hand patterns is 3 times as slow, now. Maybe working with one of Fred Sokolov' lessons like this one, "Travis Picking For Beginners" will familiarize you with whats involved and then help decide if studying this is for you or not?
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Post by Matt on Jan 21, 2014 12:27:22 GMT
The technique that really helped me was actually trying to learn the bass and lead parts as one, playing the tune very slowly, and treating it just as a series of upstrokes with my fingers, downstrokes with my thumb, and pinches where they coincide to make up the tune.
After a fairly modest amount of practice the alternating bass seems to just fall out of the tune, for want of a better description, and I find myself with a grasp on both the alternating bass and the melody. I don't know if it's the best method, but it works for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 14:11:10 GMT
Hi anolanbfg. Re flat picking - my understanding is that it is done with a plectrum, rather than thumbpicks. TT
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Post by zak71 on Jan 21, 2014 14:58:46 GMT
I think that calling it "separation" of thumb and fingers is a poor choice of expression. You want separation? Cut your thumb off!
The mechanics of fingerpicking, even stuff far more complex than Doc Watson, can be broken down two possibilities: - thumb on the beat, finger on the "and" - thumb and finger pinch at the same time Even the most complicated fingerpicking can be broken down into those two moves.
You can use one of two methods to learn material: One is to sit there and play with ONLY your thumb until you can do it on auto-pilot. Then, once you can do it smoothly AND carry on a conversation with someone at the same time, add the fingers.
The other is, like Matt suggested a couple of posts up, is to take it bar by bar, very slowly. The first method worked for me in my formative fingerpicking years, the second method works best for me now.
As for Doc and "50 years of practice" - he sounded every bit as slick 25 years earlier. A BIG part of that is he didn't spend hours a day on a computer, or come from the Instant Gratification Generation (where watching an instructional video twice had better turn you into a master fingerpicker, or your money back!), or have a whole lot of other distractions. I don't know anyone who plays guitar 8 hours a day anymore.
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Post by slide496 on Jan 21, 2014 16:28:21 GMT
...or come from the Instant Gratification Generation (where watching an instructional video twice had better turn you into a master fingerpicker, or your money back!) IMHO a combination of both the beginning learning pointers from forum members or players of that style and video instruction might be useful. I don't know where Zak71 gets the idea of "instant gratification," but that is not the intention of at least the video I posted. The instruction demonstrates the patterns, chords and bass runs that make up the song, and goes over it in small increments. Therefore IMHO its worth watching . You might not use it a as a primary source of instruction and no one says you have to.
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Post by zak71 on Jan 21, 2014 16:59:14 GMT
I don't know where Zak71 gets the idea of "instant gratification," but that is not the intention of at least the video I posted. The instruction demonstrates the patterns, chords and bass runs that make up the song, and goes over it in small increments. Therefore IMHO its worth watching . You might not use it a as a primary source of instruction and no one says you have to. I get the idea from observing my friends' teenage kids giving up the guitar after a month (or less!) because they aren't getting immediate results, or because they can't wrap their heads around the fact that "being good at playing Guitar Hero" doesn't give them any transferable skills. I get the idea from seeing how little time people have for patience, practice, and perseverance (three things without which no one gets anywhere on a musical instrument). I also get the idea from hearing people say that they "don't have time" to practice an hour or more a day, yet spend their entire evening idling their time away in front of a tv or a computer. When I was growing up, almost everyone I knew had the aspiration to play an instrument of some kind, if not then they had a sibling who did. That doesn't seem to be the case today. In spite of the fact that none of my musical heroes and role models ever relied on instructional videos, tablature, or any other such method (I doubt that they would have even been able to envision them)...I am not disparaging instructional videos. If that is your preferred method of learning - great, do what works for you. I just have a problem with the notion that they will make you a "better" player without any effort (and time, lots and lots of time) of your own. No need to take it personally, is there? Unless you're under 30 years old and actually belong to the generation in question. I must say, however, that when I hear someone play a familiar tune - the best example off the top of my head would be William Brown's "Mississippi Blues" hahaha - I can immediately tell if they learned it from the Lomax recording...or from a Stefan Grossman video. How did that SONG ever morph into an instrumental, anyway?
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Post by slide496 on Jan 21, 2014 17:30:44 GMT
Zak71 I was wondering where you got that "instant gratification" "better player" from. I don't think that the goals of guitar hero instruction, which I have never played, are particularly relevant here. Not taking it personally, I am well aware of your point of view by now and appreciate your stating it - you have your points!
I am thinking of putting myself in the position of someone who has never done travis. I learn a little at a time and study from the videos breaking them down the same way as if I were going to a live teacher. I was taught in this order -the thumb time keeper part first, then the patterns in a couple of lessons and then went on to learn song, a couple of bars at a time.
Currently It takes me 6 weeks - 6 months depending on the mix of chord changes/patterns. Sometimes I just work new things out on my own.
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