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Post by TN Pat on Nov 27, 2013 23:05:23 GMT
Curious about the tonal differences of strings on a reso, nickel vs phosphor bronze, etc. What strings do you guys use? Are the differences more pronounced on a resonator?
I have yet to buy my first resophonic, but on a regular flat top, I greatly prefer a "vintage" bronze (like GHS) to phosphor bronze. (Too frosty sounding).
What have you guys tried, and what is the verdict? And do your choices differ for wooden bodied resonators? Let's talk gauges, too.
Also, I generally tune to Eb in standard, so when in open tunings I am a full step low. This is not a problem on a flat top, but perhaps I should I go with a super heavy gauge in order to really drive the cone. My MM ''28 should be hitting the bench tomorrow, so let me know what you think! Thanks!
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Post by jreading on Nov 28, 2013 10:13:13 GMT
I cannot answer your question but it is a question I am keen to know more about. Having recently aquired a MM Blues and trying to learn as much as I can about resonators, I to am curious to know the real world difference's of the two types of strings.
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 28, 2013 10:28:16 GMT
Hi TN Pat, Which strings one uses is really a personal taste thing, but I can give you some guidelines and advice.... I think the differences are more pronounced on a resonator than on a regular acoustic, because too light a gauge of string will not drive the cone. MM guitars go out to customers strung with 13/56 MM strings, which are a good all-round set to start with. With my own brand of strings that were specifically designed for use on National and National-style guitars in slack open tunings DGDGBD & DADF#AD, there are two types and two gauges; phosphor bronze and nickel, and 15/17/26/36/46/56 or 16/18/27/39/49/59. (The 13/56 set was a later addition to the range that was added due to the demand for a regular tuning set. My original designs were two gauges...light & heavy - 15/56 and 16/59) Both types of strings are popular with players and both sound great. Some say that the nickel are more vintage sounding, but my personal choice is always phosphor bronze as they have more bass and for my taste, a richer tone. The newness goes away after 30 minutes of playing. As for gauges; again that is really personal, but if you are tuning down to E flat and in open tunings a whole tone down, I would definitely recommend heavy gauge strings. I find on the MM BLUES'28s that both light and heavy gauges sound and feel really good, but as I said, I think I would try heavy strings with your slack tunings. I think the only way for you, is to try a few different sets of strings. Maybe start with 15/56 and then try some 16/59s. One thing that is important with MM strings, is that they are made with old style round cores, which means they tune to pitch at slightly lower tension than regular hexagonal core strings. This was one of the main factors in the design of them and does make them feel different to most other brands. There are a few US dealers - have a look at the Newtone dealers list.... www.newtonestrings.com/links.htmI hope that my comments have been of some help. Have a great Thanksgiving and >Shine On Michael |
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Post by Quarterquay on Nov 29, 2013 19:24:42 GMT
I've just read this somewhere else on the forum and come across it referred to about Fred McDowell on a youtube clip of someone explaining a little about Fred's sound. "The electric guitars were always strung with Black Diamond Electric Strings – the pack with the unwound G string being essential." Read more: michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/6209/fred-mcdowells-guitars-sale#ixzz2m40wxhLfKnowing next to nothing about strings it has stirred my curiosity. can someone illuminate me as to the whys and wherefores of an unwound G string and if it's applicable/advisable (or not) to acoustic guitars and resonators as well or just an electric guitar thing. |
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Post by simonf on Nov 29, 2013 20:18:50 GMT
Im a big fan of an unwound third string- but on fingerpicking flat tops rather than for slide. Ive heard it said that a benefit of using one on a slide / reso guitar is the cleaner sound because the string is smooth.
The reason I use them though, is for bends. You can achieve sounds with an unound third that you cannot do with a wound third when playing old grungy delta blues.
As I understand it they were very common or the norm back in the day.
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Post by wrinkleygit on Nov 29, 2013 21:30:42 GMT
re difference between nickel & phos bronze, I find nickels slightly brighter & probably better for cutting thro' when playing with other instruments, however, for my own playing at home I prefer the warmer tone of pb, thumbs up for newtone strings, I use their heritage classics, with regard to plain thirds I have always used these on acoustics in reg tuning to make bending a little easier, but definitely prefer a wound third for slide it gives a much fuller sound, best option is to try one & see how you get on, mike b.
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Post by zak71 on Nov 30, 2013 1:26:31 GMT
re difference between nickel & phos bronze, I find nickels slightly brighter & probably better for cutting thro' when playing with other instruments Funny you should say that, because I have found the opposite to be true. I used round-core nickel strings for years because they are closest to what would have been used in the 20s and 30s, but now that I am playing in a string band with a tenor banjo and a banjo-mandolin, I am enjoying the added volume and bass of bronze strings. Luckily strings are inexpensive and it shouldn't take long to figure out what you prefer...just give them time to break in properly. Nickel and 80/20 bronze strings sound awful until they've been played for a good 6 to 8 hours, while phosphor bronze seems to lose the harshness faster. Phosphor bronze strings and their pronounced midrange can make already midrange-heavy instruments sound obnoxious (birch bodied ladder-braced guitars, or my Style O, for instance). 80/20 bronze strings always seem painfully bright to me until they break in, but once they do they seem hold their tone longer than phosphor bronze strings (at least that's how it works with my sweat chemistry)...yet they simply do not work on my Triolian, no matter how hard I try to like them. Curious about the tonal differences of strings on a reso, nickel vs phosphor bronze, etc. I don't think there's a "best" string for resonator guitars...I have steel, brass, and wood bodied Nationals and they all have distinctly different personalities and don't all sound their best with the same strings. I also don't use particularly heavy strings, 12s for standard tuning and 13s for open D/G. The original Nationals with "Spanish" (round) necks were shipped from the factory with remarkably lightweight strings, and the " all they had in the old days was heavy strings" myth really needs to die - those incredibly lightweight ladder braced guitars of the 20s were most certainly not built for anything heavy! Heavy strings were probably available as early as the late 20s but didn't really become popular until people stopped playing 12-fret 0 and 00 sized guitars and started playing x-braced "orchestra" models and archtops. "Hawaiian" strings were a whole other matter. If anything, too heavy a string just kills all the sustain and overtones in a single-cone National. Look at these string gauges - the wound strings would have been round-core (less tension than modern hex-core strings), so factor that in as well.  |
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 30, 2013 11:50:24 GMT
One thing to consider regarding strings in the 1920s and 30s on resonator guitars is that most slide and lap steel (Tricone and Dobro) players used EAEAC#E and AC#EAC#E, rather than the DGDGBD and GBDGBD that most players these days use.
The 16/59 MM strings are gauged for slack open tunings DGDGBD and DADF#AD on National and National-style guitars. Tuned to those pitches or lower, they do not stifle the tone at all. Interestingly, on my square neck Dobro they sound amazing in FACFAC and GBDGBD, and if the tension screw is set right, the tone is not compromised at all.
Shine On
Michael.
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Post by pascal on Nov 30, 2013 12:16:48 GMT
Zak Here are the hawaiian guitar strings from the 1938 "National" ad: (SQUARE NECKS !!!)  Very similar to the one we use, apart the round core, same as "Newtone", and the fact that "modern Bronze" strings were introduced into the 60', phosphore b. into the 80' These were white bronze (an alloy of varying amounts of copper, tin, and zinc). |
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Post by Quarterquay on Nov 30, 2013 14:26:29 GMT
On the unwound third, Thanks Simonf & Wrinklygit. Would you use the same gauge third unwound as the wound you'd be replacing it with?
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Post by zak71 on Nov 30, 2013 14:48:22 GMT
These were white bronze (an alloy of varying amounts of copper, tin, and zinc). Pascal, I am pretty sure that the most popular alloy of the day was what was called "Monel Silver" - still available for a few brands of mandolin strings, and most recently offered by Martin (their Tony Rice strings). They sound great on some of my guitars, and quite awful on others. Also, bronze strings have been around much longer than the 60s, they just weren't as ubiquitous on acoustic guitars as they are today. It came as a big surprise to me, but I have seen 1930s string packages for bronze strings. One thing to consider regarding strings in the 1920s and 30s on resonator guitars is that most slide and lap steel (Tricone and Dobro) players used EAEAC#E and AC#EAC#E, rather than the DGDGBD and GBDGBD that most players these days use. This is absolutely correct. It's funny how in an era of trussrods, over-braced guitars, and touch-of-a-button string mail-order, people are so very cautious about tuning up. Although there were no shortage of players who tuned down to get to Spanish or Vestapol tunings among pre-WWII players, open A and open E were seemingly much more common that they are today. On the other end of the extreme, I have seen a late 1940s or early 50s advertisement for "archtop" string sets which were so heavy that the B string was wound!! |
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Post by Michael Messer on Nov 30, 2013 15:01:19 GMT
A lot of that myth about not tuning up is in my opinion related to two things; 1 - that modern Dobro players are so closely related to banjo players and that so much folk/country/bluegrass is in the key of G, that the GBDGBD tuning works well. Bashful Brother Oswald tuned his Dobro AC#EAC#E and played what he called more of an island style than a banjo style.....> and 2 - in the days when vintage Nationals outnumbered new Nationals and National-style guitars, that rumour about damaging cones with high tunings was spread to protect old and fragile cones. There is some truth in that, especially if you play like a modern Dobro player. I have kept my square neck Tricones in high bass G (GBDGBD) for the last fifteen years and never had a problem. It is all to do with what I call 'Cone Awareness'. Some people have it and some don't. I would never allow a person without 'cone awareness' to touch any of my guitars!
Shine On
Michael
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Post by wrinkleygit on Nov 30, 2013 15:02:34 GMT
hello again, ref unwound third strings in reg tuning, I normally replace a wound third with a plain 17 in a 11 gauge set, mike
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Post by zak71 on Nov 30, 2013 15:28:38 GMT
A lot of that myth about not tuning up is in my opinion related to two things; 1 - that modern Dobro players are so closely related to banjo players and that so much folk/country/bluegrass is in the key of G, that the GBDGBD tuning works well. I think that the dominance of bluegrass over other acoustic music styles has indirectly ruined more than a few old instruments. There's nothing like seeing a delicate old bowlback mandolin, or a WWI era banjo which has been subjected to the bluegrasser's " let's tighten everything as tight as it gets, string it with the biggest strings we can find, and see how loud it will get before it implodes" approach to instrument set-up. People look at me in utter disbelief when I tell them that pre-WWI banjos were mostly intended for gut strings, and that " tightening the head until it sounds a G or G#" might work for a modern 5-string banjo, but will not produce the desired results with a 1920s tenor. I wonder how many 15" scale National mandolins have required neck resets and straightening as a result of being abused by bluegrass musicians? |
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Post by mitchfit on Nov 30, 2013 16:38:16 GMT
..."pretty sure that the most popular alloy of the day was what was called "Monel Silver""...
monel is just a nickle alloy, with excellent corrosion and heat resistance. as such, it it
used frequently in marine applications where salt water exposure kills steel very quickly.
.."(at least that's how it works with my sweat chemistry)"...
all the ear markings of a fellow "acid hand" sufferer?
i can make green strings with just a few plays, and i wipe
down the strings rigorously after/before each use.
mitchfit
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