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Post by tark on Aug 22, 2007 11:17:34 GMT
Hi all,
I thought I would post a list of the mods I have made to my Vintage AMG2 tricone because it might help others with low cost instruments. Also perhaps forum members would have suggestions about other things I could do (Steady now!!). Straight out of the box the guitar sounded dreadful.
The first thing I did was return it to the supplier because the first one they sent had a broken truss rod. They sent me a replacement.
Fitted a set of MM strings.
Tweaked the truss rod (partly to make sure the new one worked).
Replaced the cones and the bridge (the original cones were rubbish and the bridge was really heavy with a 'maple' saddle just flopping around in the oversize slot). There seems to be a bit of a problem with cone replacement on these guitars because the way the Chinese have drawn the sound well down out of the top leaves the sound well a little under size compared to say NRP. You have to form the outer folds on replacement cones over to slightly reduce their diameter to get them to fit.
Carefully shaped the saddle slots for maximum sustain.
Removed a plastic tape gasket around the sound well. Removal was not strictly necessary, but the gasket was overkill since the cover plate also had a masking tape 'gasket' stuck around the edge.
Removed the cover plate self tapping screws, threaded the holes and replaced the screws with 2.5mm button head hex screws. Again not strictly necessary, but it means I can take the cover plate off many times with less chance of stripping a thread.
Filed longer string slots into the tail piece , so the strings form a nice break angle over the folded ridge just in front of the string slots. I think this helps stop any buzzing at the string ends and helps sustain.
Removed the scraps of wire that had been jammed into the oversize strap button screw hole to make it bite and fitted a wooden dowel to fill the hole so the screw had something to bite into.
Replaced the strap button felt washer with a 1/2 inch rubber tap washer. This helps stop the tailpiece moving around (its hole is a bit oversize) which stabilises tuning. I had to tap a little dent into the strap on the cover plate because the tailpiece was touching it and buzzing.
Filed down the nut and reshaped the string slots so the strings don't bind. Improves ease of tuning and sustain.
Made and fitted packing pieces between the bottom of the sound well and the neck stick. This improves tuning stability, sustain and general sound. As supplied, although the screws through the well into the neck stick were in place and seemingly tightened down, there was a 2 to 3mm gap between the bottom of the well and the top of the neck stick at the top and middle of the well. Apart from anything else this meant the centre of the well was free to flex downwards as string pressure was applied to the cones.
Popped out the back of the guitar so its convex, as it is supposed to be. Seems that a knock during shipping had caused the back to act as a mechanical bistable and flip into bending the other way.
Repositioned the loose mushroom prop under the neck stick for best tone. This was really tricky to do. The guitar just didn't sound right in the bass. Eventually I strung it up with just the one mushroom in, down by the end (strap) block, played the bottom string and pressed a knuckle against the back of the guitar in different places until it sounded right. Then I put the second mushroom back in at that point. This is about where the centre of the foremost cone is in relation to the neck stick. It's roughly dead centre of the back. Disconcertingly this means the back is now highly damped with almost no tap ring at all.
That's it so far.
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Post by mirrormist on Aug 22, 2007 12:16:15 GMT
Hello Tark
I also like to keep tweaking to a minimum ;D
seriously...my amg2 has mm strings and that's it for me...the sound is distinct and I like it like that...dead 12th fret high string if finger picking but I live with that.
not so sure they are low cost guitars though...might be cheaper than most but up to £500 aint a little bit of dosh to me.
interesting all the same
best wishes
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Post by Bill Stig on Aug 22, 2007 12:16:44 GMT
How much did it improve the instrument Tark?
Bill
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Post by tark on Aug 22, 2007 12:28:30 GMT
How much did it improve the instrument Tark? Bill Out of the box the thing was unplayable, at least for me. In total my mods made a really huge difference to the point where its a half decent guitar (in my opinion). I have found the only real way to tell how good a guitar is, is through comparison. Compare enough guitars and it becomes pretty obvious which sound good and which don't. Fortunately I have a good NRP and an Amistar to compare the AMG2 against. I also believe you can tell if any particular mod has made a difference for better or worse. I had shopped around for the best price and paid £300 for it.
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Post by Bill Stig on Aug 22, 2007 12:54:09 GMT
It's good to know that you can turn a cheap guitar into something half decent for a relatively small outlay. My friend has a low priced tricone that's been modded and it's a nice guitar.
I emailed John Hornby Skewes , the distributors of Vintage guitars, regarding my concerns for the quality control of their resonators. In response they sent me some favourable reviews and said,
" We do care very much about our products, and if you are interested in purchasing what is a pretty specialist category of instrument, I'd suggest you do your own research, and focus upon specialist dealers, who have the knowledge to 'tweak' these sometimes cantankerous guitars to suit the players needs."
Maybe I'm being picky, but if I buy a new guitar I would expect it to have been "tweaked" by the factory. Fair play to JHS for answering me though - I got no reply from Johnson guitars.
Bill
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Post by tark on Aug 22, 2007 14:28:04 GMT
Hi Bill,
From my experience with these cheap Chinese guitars and particularly for the low volume specialist instruments, quality control is pretty much non-existent. They aim to make these things as cheaply as possible and to ship every guitar they make no matter what state it is in. It's crazy really because the materials they use are OK and the quality of the sub assemblies like the neck and the body are often very good for the money. Its in final assembly, mating the neck to the body, that it all goes pear shaped, as though they use totally unskilled labor on piece rates for the final most critical step. It does seem as though the worst faults and shortcuts are confined to inside the guitar where the usual shop customer would not be able to see them. I think JHS claim that they check every guitar they ship, but I think its only the one person doing this who gives them a very superficial eyeballing. They certainly can't spend time taking the guitars apart to check for loose mushrooms or missing packing blocks. JHS and other distributors like them perhaps rely on the fact that the mass guitar buying public actually knows very little about guitars, so they just won't notice any faults. I don't suppose there is anyone working at JHS who knows very much about resonator guitars either.
Don't get me wrong I didn't expect anything more for my £300 than I actually got. I expected to do a lot of work on the guitar to make it playable.
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Post by fitchmeister on Aug 22, 2007 15:29:55 GMT
Hi Tark Nice post - i got an upgraded AMG2. New NRP cones and Bridge, via LRC Fitted replacement tuners and filed the nut slots myself Am interested in the mushroom mod - but am a bit concerned about ~~~~ing it up Cheers Roj
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Post by tark on Aug 23, 2007 11:11:31 GMT
Hi Tark Nice post - i got an upgraded AMG2. New NRP cones and Bridge, via LRC Fitted replacement tuners and filed the nut slots myself Am interested in the mushroom mod - but am a bit concerned about ~~~~ing it up Cheers Roj Hi Roj, Good to hear from a fellow AMG2 owner. I'm guessing you may have the earlier version with the unbound neck? In my opinion this was a far better guitar than the current version. I get the impression the mushroom thing has been discussed many times on this and other forums. What's weird is it's still not entirely clear exactly how this mod makes the guitar sound better. I had thought it was to do with changing the resonance mainly of the back panel of the body. Now I think it may be to do with the low frequency longitudinal resonance of the entire guitar including the neck. According to Don Young the end mushroom can be anywhere from right up close to the end block to somewhere under the lower part of the sound well. The upper mushroom can be from 2 inches from the heel to somewhere under the top section of the sound well. In other words - almost anywhere they will fit !! I wouldn't worry about trying it out - just get in there and do it! Most of the Chinese guitars seem to have either loose posts or at least not very firmly glued in. Normally all they need is a tap or a twist and they come out. If its really stuck, grab it with some small mole grips and carefully twist. You may need to add a packing piece to allow for the differences in the gap along the neck stick relative to the back. Normally you will find the lower mushroom is down by the end block. I'd leave it there and just move the other one. First remove the upper mushroom altogether and re-string the guitar. Push your knuckle against the back of the guitar at different spots along the centre line, while playing the bottom string until you find the best sound. Pressing then removing the knuckle allows you to hear the contrast in sound. Then put the mushroom back in at the best spot. I didn't bother gluing mine in in case I wasn't happy and wanted to move it again.
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Post by mistercanetoad on Aug 23, 2007 19:49:07 GMT
Hi Tark,
I've had a go at upgrading a cheapish AXL tricone with good results, it seems to compare well with more expensive makes. One thing I found was that the end of the neck stick didn't quite reach the end of the body where the tailpiece screws on. There was a crappy loose bit of wood there. I cut a new bit and glued and jammed it in tight. This a) increased sustain coz it's all wood, joined together from one end of the string to the other and b) stopped the body from starting to fold up over time. As for the 'mushroom mod' Pete Woodman says something along the line of that it is important that everything is rigid in a reso body.I have noticed that if anything rattles or vibrates it take energy from the strings and affects tone and sustain. Perhaps a little bit of resonance adds to the tone...but that's fine tuning!
Dave
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Post by wolvoboy on Aug 24, 2007 15:05:59 GMT
Hi everyone I have a Regal tricone that had a twisted headstock and a few other faults when i bought it, how it got through the quality control i dont know i got it for the right price and decided to have it rebuilt by Pete woodman New neck National cones ect, with Petes expertise it is now a beautiful guitar, loud for a tricone i think it sounds as good as any of the top end guitars so sometimes its a good idea to have a cheap guitar tweaked to get the best out of it. have a look on Pete Woodmans website to have a look at all the bits that came out of it.total cost includes buying the guitar and rebuild less than £ 750 Wolvoboy
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Post by LouisianaGrey on Aug 24, 2007 16:34:30 GMT
"Removed a plastic tape gasket around the sound well. Removal was not strictly necessary"
One thing that gasket does achieve - and I still have the scars to prove it - is to stop you hacking chunks out of your hand on the sharp edges of the holes when you're poking around inside the guitar. If you're going to take it off I recommend you do it after you've done all the internal modifications.
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2big2b
Serious MM Forum Member
*** Virginia, USA ***
Posts: 29
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Post by 2big2b on Sept 20, 2021 3:15:28 GMT
I wish I had found this earlier!
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Post by vastopol on Sept 20, 2021 11:49:49 GMT
Wow! anther thread about cheap tricones ! Great to find some sharing point of vue around these instruments! (I've just read another thread here: michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/12909/2004-johnson-jm-991-lemon ) Very interesting to read a second time that "Vintage" brand sound well have an undersized sound well, I've read somewhere that some "Vintage" tricones had a very strange T bar and cones; saw in pictures these cones are somewhat flat on top and screwed with the T bar, and this T bar is not slotted under, just a full block of cast...weird to see, and very poor in sound if I trust what I've read...i've heard some poor demos on youtube too. The only case I know about undersized soundwell is on "Ozark" wooden tricones, wich is maybe related to vintage, as they are probably made in Korea (like most of the JHS products) if i'm correct? But as Tark said, it looks like there's some variations over the years, I remember trying one years ago, very decent in tone, but fitted with the normal type of cones and bridge. I've seen some others changing details, like the binding, the number of dots on the fretboard, and the type of wire mesh on the coverplate (not the very thin and fussy one seen on every budget tricones, but something more in the spirit of the old ones). Mr Tark will you please tell me the weight of your vintage AMG 2 ? And does your sound well have the four punched triangles between each cones, or is it flat?... Does your T bar is slotted or plain? Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences!
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Post by Michael Messer on Sept 20, 2021 12:01:18 GMT
Wow! anther thread about cheap tricones ! Great to find some sharing point of vue around these instruments! (I've just read another thread here: michaelmesser.proboards.com/thread/12909/2004-johnson-jm-991-lemon ) Very interesting to read a second time that "Vintage" brand sound well have an undersized sound well, I've read somewhere that some "Vintage" tricones had a very strange T bar and cones; saw in pictures these cones are somewhat flat on top and screwed with the T bar, and this T bar is not slotted under, just a full block of cast...weird to see, and very poor in sound if I trust what I've read...i've heard some poor demos on youtube too. The only case I know about undersized soundwell is on "Ozark" wooden tricones, wich is maybe related to vintage, as they are probably made in Korea (like most of the JHS products) if i'm correct? But as Tark said, it looks like there's some variations over the years, I remember trying one years ago, very decent in tone, but fitted with the normal type of cones and bridge. I've seen some others changing details, like the binding, the number of dots on the fretboard, and the type of wire mesh on the coverplate (not the very thin and fussy one seen on every budget tricones, but something more in the spirit of the old ones). Mr Tark will you please tell me the weight of your vintage AMG 2 ? And does your sound well have the four punched triangles between each cones, or is it flat?... Does your T bar is slotted or plain? Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences! Tark has not been a contributor to this forum for seven years! Vintage AXL built guitars were made at a time when the Shanghai resonator guitar industry was in its infancy. While I am not a fan of any Far Eastern built Tricones, I can say with confidence that many improvements have been made since those early days. Shine On Michael
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Post by vastopol on Sept 20, 2021 12:23:30 GMT
Thank you and excuse me, your reponse doesn't appear until I write this...
I had to recognize i'm wrong; this one came from China: It's wrote on the sticker.
The truss rod access looks close to "Sigma" guitars... Sometimes the handrest is bolted on too... The back is sometimes punched like the "Ozark" shape, not like AXL backs, that's what i' was mistaken.
Too bad that Tark wasen't here...but if anyone have infos, it could be nice.
I'am not in search of a good instrument since I have (at last) some good ones, I'm just trying to understand how so much differences could appear in this range of instruments, coming from the same place. Just to be able to help someone in search of a decent one, if visual aspects could give an idea, or at least to avoid loss of money, time, and pleasure of playing.
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