Anybody ever take a neck off a national?

[jamesfarrell]

I posted this over @ IGS, but wanted to get some ideas from some of the folks on here. I've decided to have a guy named Larry Stevens fix my tricone neck. He's going to make it look like a national again and put an ebony overlay on the headstock.

Anyhow I got the thing all apart and couldn't budge the mushrooms (2).

I had to put both feet on either side of the heel and pull the neck as hard as I could to separate it from the body. Luckily I did not take my face off.

Couple questions. I got the mushrooms off. Used a lighter on the back of the body to heat them up and they came out pretty easy, only leaving a little wood behind on the body which I sanded off.

1. Should I make new mushrooms? I have no idea how I'm going to get these back in if I put the neck in. They were so tight, I mean tight as tight. Any suggestions to getting them back in?

2. Regardless of how I get the mushrooms back in, should I reglue them and what kind of glue should I use?

3. Also, the neck just abuts the tail block. I always thought that the tailpiece screw should go through the tail block and into the neck stick. This does not appear to be the case. Is this correct?

4. Also, if there is any space between anything, should I put a shim like cedar in there?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks, Kevin

[snakehips]

Hi there !

Oh my God !!!! What the hell are you doing putting your feet on the body and pulling the neck ??
You could push the body all out of shape !

If you are sending it to a PROFESSIONAL National repair guy like Larry Stevens - then why of effin' why are trying to take it apart yourself ?

Sounds like it has been worked on before and been glued in - in places not normally needed glued.

Or are you the guy with the NRP tricone with the damaged headstock that you cut it into a pointed headstock ?

Ah ! I think I get it now - you are only sending him the neck of a NRP guitar, and you are going to re-fit the (repaired) neck yourself ?

Sounds like a hammer and chisel to re-fit it will be the order of the day. Rip anything out that doesn't stay put after being knocked about with a sledgehammer AND being stamped on !!!

[jamesfarrell]

Well first off you did not answer any of my questions, so I don't know why you even responded.

National mentioned that sometimes they use to glue in the mushrooms in the early 2000's models.

I've never taken a neck off one of these before and couldn't get the mushrooms loose. I did not know they were glued in there.

Anybody that can answer my questions, offer some help, let me know.

I sent the neck only to Larry, as it is easier for him to refinish it and I will save $100 in shipping.

Kevin

[Michael Messer]

Hi Kevin,

Not ignoring you, I am just very busy!

You need to talk with someone who does this regularly. In the UK and also members of this forum are Pete Woodman & Dave King.

Good luck & keep in touch,

Shine On,
Michael.

[tark]

Hi Kevin,

I thought you said over on the IGS forum you had to cut through the posts?

In which case they'll now be shorter and you will either have to shim them or buy/make new ones that will need to be trimmed to fit. I wouldn't have thought that if you do shim them that the material used would be hugely critical.

As to getting them back in it's all a balancing act between shims on top of the neck stick (between it and the soundwell) and the posts to get the neck at the right angle with the heel well snugged up against the body.

I think that you need to get the neck very close to snugged in by first concentrating on the shims. Then with the posts cut so they are just a little too long to just slide under the stick you can force them in to place by pressing down on the back of the body. You can even do this by using a temporary wedge or turnbuckle jack of some kind to hold the gap between the stick and the back open while you slide the posts into place.

When I have experimented with post positions I have found it quite easy to just push down on the back enough to slide the posts into place, but this is without removing and replacing the neck, so no major reset was required and the posts were already cut to just about the right height.

Personally I would just put a little glue on the top of the posts, just enough to hold them in position. If you put lots of glue on either end it makes it difficult to move them if you do want to get them out. Also not many glues are very effective at glueing the pads to the metal body. I don't understand the NRP guys reference to nailing through the neck stick with a brad gun, since there is virtually no access to the neck stick once it is installed in the guitar body.

However this is just my 2 cents worth based on the fairly limited amount of adjustment work I have done on my own guitars. People who do this for a living like Dave King and Pete Woodman have vastly more experience with neck resets and post adjustment. Mind you since its how they make a living they might understandably be reticent about sharing their knowledge on a public forum.

[jamesfarrell]

tark said:

Hi Kevin,

I thought you said over on the IGS forum you had to cut through the posts?

In which case they'll now be shorter and you will either have to shim them or buy/make new ones that will need to be trimmed to fit. I wouldn't have thought that if you do shim them that the material used would be hugely critical.

As to getting them back in it's all a balancing act between shims on top of the neck stick (between it and the soundwell) and the posts to get the neck at the right angle with the heel well snugged up against the body.

I think that you need to get the neck very close to snugged in by first concentrating on the shims. Then with the posts cut so they are just a little too long to just slide under the stick you can force them in to place by pressing down on the back of the body. You can even do this by using a temporary wedge or turnbuckle jack of some kind to hold the gap between the stick and the back open while you slide the posts into place.

When I have experimented with post positions I have found it quite easy to just push down on the back enough to slide the posts into place, but this is without removing and replacing the neck, so no major reset was required and the posts were already cut to just about the right height.

Personally I would just put a little glue on the top of the posts, just enough to hold them in position. If you put lots of glue on either end it makes it difficult to move them if you do want to get them out. Also not many glues are very effective at glueing the pads to the metal body. I don't understand the NRP guys reference to nailing through the neck stick with a brad gun, since there is virtually no access to the neck stick once it is installed in the guitar body.

However this is just my 2 cents worth based on the fairly limited amount of adjustment work I have done on my own guitars. People who do this for a living like Dave King and Pete Woodman have vastly more experience with neck resets and post adjustment. Mind you since its how they make a living they might understandably be reticent about sharing their knowledge on a public forum.

Thanks Michael and Tark, I post this in multiple places to get different takes on the process. I never cut through the posts. They did not move as the mushrooms were glued to the back of the guitar. I wish I had heated them before taking off the neck. The neck already has shims still attached to the top of the stick where they meet the soundwell. They are glued on. This is a 2003 model mind you, so I don't think I'll need the heel to be adjusted. As for the mushrooms, they're marked and will go in exactly as they came out.

So the neck goes in first, then the piece of wood under the fretboard then the mushooms. Sound right?

Everyone make this stuff sound like rocket science. That's what bothers me. It's a simple procedure it seems, but I'm just not familiar with all the tricks and the sequence of getting it back together. I'm glad I did it though. I don't like relying on having to wait for someone else to do it. It's not the money, it's my impatience and being able to do stuff on my own.

As far as repairing the headstock, I could have undertaken that myself as well, but I couldn't be bothered and again, I don't know all the tricks involved and if I don't have 1 tool to do something I won't do it. I don't like to mickey mouse stuff.

Kevin

[tark]

Hi Kevin,

So you yanked the neck out with the posts still glued to the neck stick and to the back of the guitar? Eeek!!

When you put it back in you can attach the plate under the fretboard first if you like, but its probably best to leave the screws a little loose so the neck has a chance to settle into position as you fit the screws through the sound well and attach the posts. You have to be very careful with the fretboard extension past the neck heel because it's quite a thin piece of wood and its already partially cut through by the fret slots.

My comment aboust snugging up the heel was because you have to fool around with the shims under the soundwell and placing the posts under the neck stick in order to get the inside face of the heel tight up against the body. I think unless you are very lucky even though this neck was originally fitted to this body you won't get a perfect fit right away.

Also if you were happy with the bass response of the guitar in the first place you will need to put the posts back exactly in the same position. There may even be an issue with shimming them just right to get the same tension on the back of the body so it's tuned to the same tap tone as it was.

As I understand it fitting the neck is one of the most labour intensive and critical steps in assembling a National / NRP. I have done it once myself with a brand new neck and it is APITA.

[jamesfarrell]

Well, the posts were not glued to the neck stick, just the mushroom caps were glued to the back. I've never heard of them being glued. I had no idea. I got everything marked and I'll figure the damn thing out. I don't give up. I'm lucky the neck didn't break when I ripped it off. LOFL.

I wish I recorded the tap tune you speak of, but oh well. If it sounds like crap, I'll just screw with it till it sounds good, or just send it to National. I got other guitars to play. No biggie. I just love doing stuff myself. Not that I'm cheap, I just don't like not knowing how to do something.

Thanks for the help Tark. I see someone tore you a new A-hole over on IGS. LOFL. I use to get into arguments, now I just laugh. Hey, if some guy made me a POS I wouldn't bash him, but I wouldn't remain silent either.

[tark]

Hi Kevin,

If the posts weren't glued I'm surprised the neck was hard to get off. Once the screws into the fretboard and the screws through the sound well are removed I didn't think there was anything else holding it in. I'm sure you will be posting further instalments in the great neck restoration saga anyway, but I'd be really interested to hear how you get on, with pics of the new headstock if possible.

As for matters postal, I know you have seen the post from Marc Shoenberger over on the IGS forum, but I thought I'd copy it here for the benefit of the MM forum readers -

[Nationals FUNCTION best with when the posts & pads are within these parameters -
Back pad: from under the pan to back against the end block
Front pad: from under the pan to two inches towards the neck
We both agree that within these parameters, the tension is more important than the exact placement.]

These are pretty broad guidelines and it strikes me there are really two parameters of concern -

1. The amount of pressure each pad applies to the back.

2. The pads division of the back into resonant areas depending on their placement.

Marc's comment also leads me to wonder if they actually tune each and every guitar at NRP or if they just bung the posts and pads in pretty much the same place every time.

As to someone tearing me a new one over on IGS, are you refering to your thread about swapping necks between singles and tri's and the discussion on scale length? I didn't take offence at that. I think futher posts resolved the difference of opinion. I still have a suspicion that a neck swap might be possible and some careful measurement would prove or disprove it.

The funny thing about that is that I didn't realise until it came up that there was a discrepancy in scale length between the single and tri Nationals. When I checked back I found that none of the literature I have on Nationals or even on any vintage guitars ever mentions scale length at all!! Even BB's book doesn't mention it.

[jamesfarrell]

No, not that thread, the one about the donmos. Was it you that received a less than stellar one from Don?

Anyhow, there is another thread over there (wish I knew) where I hosted some photos for a guy who got a lefty tricone. The guitar looks nice overall, but I'm a nitpicker. I noticed a couple things I wouln't be happy with such as the hand rest screws. They aren't even lined up. But I don't want to bash Don.

Mike Ramsey is my banjo builder. He's from Virginia. His first banjo he built for me (a fretless) had a neck issue. Plus he's not the best guy as far as detailed perfection. So I sent the neck back, he built me another one.

Then I got another banjo from him, I had to reglue the binding of the neck back on and there were spots on the neck where the inlays weren't filled in with ebony dust / glue. Little stuff like this irritates me. That's why I bought a Bart Reiter Banjo as my last one. He's been making banjos longer than Mike and they are flawless.

Donmo I'm sure will get better with time. he's just started out.

Anhyow as for the mushrooms, I've marked them both, but then sanded the glue on the front mounted one and the frign marks went sanded too

So are they saying 2" from the front of the guitar? 2" back from the heel?

[tark]

Hi Kevin,

Yes I have found Sliders post now and replied.

Don has been building for over six years. What bugged me was that I felt that even I could have done better and since have.

Don and Marc's guidelines seem pretty broad if I understand them correctly. They are saying that each post can be anywhere from somewhere under the sound well to near the end block and, well under the fretboard, respectively. Back tap tone is the real guide.

[jamesfarrell]

I hosted that guys pics and I'm sort of impressed but found a few things I did not like. The hand rest cover. I mean look at the screws. How difficult is it to center two screw holes on a flat piece of metal. Little things like that are easy to figure out and it makes me wonder, if he's not giving a crap about the small details like that, what about the more difficult aspects of building a resonator. I don't want to bash the guy, he's relatively new and with everything practice makes perfect you know. I dealt wth that same thing with the guy who builds my banjos. I'm sure since 5 years have passed he's got a lot better.

What do you mean by tap test? What should one be looking for?

Kevin

[Deleted]

Hi Kevin,
I'm going off on a slight tangent here, but I'd just like to comment on your approach to your guitars. The fact that you're quite happy to chop, slice, yank and gererally 'customise' your instrument is great. Far too many people seem to want to wrap their precious items in cotton wool and treat them like a museum piece. You're mean't to derive pleasure from a guitar and if you get your kicks doing what your doing then sail on, brother.

Kind regards,

Steve.

[jamesfarrell]

Thanks Steve. To me it's just money. When I've left this planet, will I look back and say "sh*t I wish I didn't worry about money so much, I've missed 1/2 my life"

Nope. I'm not rich as of yet. I'm going to win megamillions. However, until then I work and I buy instruments. It's what I do.

I choose to buy instruments I don't have to screw with too much, like my buds Johnson that wasn't even playable out of the box.

I like perfection, so I choose National. Got 2 of em, not 1 flaw in em, and got them both on ebay. Getting a style 0 later this year and then ordering a custom tricone or possibly a Donmo. I'll have to do a little research on them as I know guys that start out building only get better.

I don't know Donmo, I don't know how long he's building, but I don't want to spend my hard earned cash on his learning curve if he hasn't been around that long.

If he's willing to work with me and realize that I am a nitpicker. I don't want to see a space between the heel or the fretboard and the body, I don't want to see misaligned screws or glue spots on the fretboard. If he can deal with that, then he's got another customer.

I got too keen of an eye and ear. Sometimes it's a blessing, sometimes not. As a youngster I use to pick out flaws in my dads work as a finish carpenter and he'd always be like "nobody is going to see that" yet to me it would actually cause me mental pain looking at it LOL.

That's not too unreasonable is it?

Kevin

[tark]

jamesfarrell said:

I hosted that guys pics and I'm sort of impressed but found a few things I did not like. The hand rest cover. I mean look at the screws. How difficult is it to center two screw holes on a flat piece of metal. Little things like that are easy to figure out and it makes me wonder, if he's not giving a crap about the small details like that, what about the more difficult aspects of building a resonator. I don't want to bash the guy, he's relatively new and with everything practice makes perfect you know. I dealt wth that same thing with the guy who builds my banjos. I'm sure since 5 years have passed he's got a lot better.

What do you mean by tap test? What should one be looking for?

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Well your comments just back up my own feelings and that's just what you can see on the outside of the guitar. On mine things got worse on the inside. To me there's handmade and there's handmade. I have seen work from individual custom makers that is almost inhuman it is so perfect. Then I have seen other instruments that have a few obvious rough areas. The Donmo was just a little too rough for me. Cheap self adhesive plastic foam draft excluder (you know the kind of light weight foam that crumbles into dust after a couple of years) stuck around the sound well to seal the cone for example because the bottom of the well had been beaten over with a hammer and wasn't anywhere near flat.

On the back tap tone thing - when you start putting the neck back in try tapping the back with a knuckle without any posts in place. You should get a really resounding boing out of it. When you re-insert the posts they should be a tight wedge fit. Try and get them back where they were and tap the back again. If the back sounds really dead then they may be in the wrong position or too tight.

If you can't relocate them where they were start with the lower post just a little way in from the end block, perhaps just under the edge of the sound well. It should provide a decent amount of support and stabilise the well there, without damping the back too much. Then experiment with the other post. Pushing it right up near the heel should give the lowest tap tone with the longest ring. Half way between the heel and the other post should give the highest deadest sound.

Who knows you may find by experiment that you get a better sound than you originally had. The only drag is that every time you move a post you have to dissasemble and then reassemble and restring to find out how it sounds.

I do know that my baritone tri sounds way better now than it did new. I have noticed that the bottom edge of the heel, which used to be tight against the body has now developed a small just visible gap, so something has moved. I suspect that all the wood, including the posts, has shrunk just a little bit and that as a result there is now just a little less damping on the back.