Hello all and question about duolian / delphi

[jamesfarrell]

Hi everybody. New here. You probably know me from the other forum, IGS. I'm the guy who butchered his national with ferric chloride. Yeah, that idiot, lol.
Well I'm contemplating getting another National, but leaving this one alone as far as modifying it. I'm just wondering if it's worth it to spend $3500 on a used old duolian or just go and get a VS delphi? The delphi option would be a lot cheaper.

I'm just wondering if there is a real sound difference. I know they are both steel. I've heard that the duolian is a lighter steel and the delphi has more of a harsh tone.

I like the sound of my tricone style 1. I do like a raw type tone with the bass strings sort of pingy rather than muted.

I'm just wondering if you can find a duolian that has been all worked over for that price, or, if I buy one for $3500 or so, if I'd then have to send it to National and wait 5 months plus another $1000 for the neck to be fixed and any other issues resolved. What do you think?

Kevin

[jamesfarrell]

Jeesh 24 views, no replies. Everybody hate me already?

[Anders]

jamesfarrell said:

What do you think?

Kevin

Throw away the ferric chloride and promise to never buy stuff like that again, and I'll tell you... ;D

Here is a couple of more things for you to consider:
- The difference between a Duo and a Delphi besides thickness of the steel
- NRP now makes a really cool frosted duco finish.
- An old duo with bent neck/ crushed cone/ etc will sound like crap, and will need restoration to sound great.
- Delphi's are very consistent in sound.
- A beat up old Duo does not have to cost you 3500 + 1000 USD in repair. 4500 USD should give you a really mint Duo.
- Check out vintagenational.com if you're in the US
- And if you buy a Duo in need of repair, send it to Mark Schoenberger (nationalguitarrepair.com). He the best in the US, and a much shorter waiting list then NRP.

If you can, try an old Duolian and a Delphi, and see what you think. That would be the best thing. They are both great guitars.

- Anders

[Michael Messer]

Hello Kevin,

Welcome to our friendly little forum.

No we don't hate you. I have been busy all day and just checked into the forum to see what's happening in the world.

I don't know about your ferric chloride experiment and I don't think I'll ask! It sounds scary to me ....actually I do want to know every detail as it has got me curious! Got any photos?

Both the NRP Delphi & the National Duolian are excellent guitars, but there is a difference in tone. If you are in the US, which I am guessing you are (?) - the first thing I would recommend is calling Lenny at Vintagenationals.com and checking out what he's got in the Duolian department. If he's got a good one, get that. But if you are worried about owning a 75 year old guitar with a tone to die for, ask him about Delphis and get one of them. You are right about the lighter gauge steel on Duolians giving a warmer fatter tone, but you won't be dissappointed if you buy a National Reso-Phonic Delphi.

On the other hand, if you are based here in the UK, I know that Ron at frets.co.uk knows of three very nice Duolians currently for sale that he can get hold of. Also in the UK, frets.co.uk are now National Reso-Phonic dealers and can do a good deal on a Delphi.

See, I told you we don't hate you, we just didn't know you were here! Please keep in touch and let me know how you get on. Any advice you need about resophonic guitars or playing slide & steel guitar, please don't hesitate to ask.

Shine On,
Michael

[jamesfarrell]

Thanks Michael, and friends. Yes, I'm in the USA. I'm quite aware of Lenny @ vintage. I don't have the money right now for either, probably in a couple months. I have a national 01 style 1

When I got it, I was kind of bummed at the fact that you just look at the thing and it gets dirty. So, I decided to go nuts on it with Ferric Chloride. It gives it an aged look.

I got cyber-beat pretty bad over @ the Guitar Seminars forum. I put up a post (Artificially Aged Tricone)

I guess I should have chosen different words as people got very upset at the words artificially aged. I don't get the big deal. It's my guitar and I don't care if I spent $8000 on it. Because others can't afford a National, don't get upset at me. I don't understand that mentality. Anyhow another issue with the guitar was that I had it leaning against a corner in the garage while I went to get a smoke and my cat rubbed against the body and knocked the guitar over chipping off a piece of the headstock. I usually never leave any guitar leaning up against anything. It was literally 30 seconds.

I should have glued it back on in hindsight, but decided instead to modify the headstock. Some love it. Some hate it. So, what's done is done and whether it's still a national, I don't know, I don't care. It's unique and I like it. I'm going to perhaps get a style 1.5 in the future so I have a tricone that is original ;D and will be purchasing a duolian or delphi VS in the near future as well.

Anyhow, I was stoked to find this place. There are not too many resonator only sites out there and I find a lot of the people on Guitar Seminars to be very unhappy folks.

Kevin

[Mark Makin]

Hi Kevin
Personally I like the look of it. Are you sure that it's stabilised and won't continue eating away at the body??
It's a bit like painting a new concrete statue in the garden with yoghurt to make it look like it's been there for centuries!!
Still whatever floats your boat - as they say!
You're a braver boy than I am!

[Mark Makin]

Incidentally Kevin,
Does the greenny yellow colour come from brass showing through the metal plating that's left or is it some kind of chemical colouring caused by the Ferric chloride?

[jamesfarrell]

It actually looks more profound in the photos because of the lighting. In person you can't really see any green / yellow. It just looks kind of old / beat up if you will.

The FeCl is not that harsh, and there is no brass showing. It just ate away slightly at the surface of the plating. There is no residue left over and the finish is very smoothe, although it does not look like it in the photos. It has not changed at all since the experiment about a month ago. The FeCl was applied in at 4 intervals with a natural sea sponge and allowed to sit for a few minutes. Turns out the reaction peaked at about 1 minute. After that, I padded off the FeCl with paper towels then wiped it clean with a damp / water sponge.

I repeated this process 3 more times, then buffed the finish with various degrees of steel wool down to a fine steel wool (number 0)

I wiped it clean thereafter with Windex (ammonia window cleaner)

[Michael Messer]

Hi Kevin,

Me too. I like the look of your personalized Tricone! As Mark says, you were brave to have a go and what you now have is a unique Tricone. If you had done that to a 1929 round-neck National that was in great condition, I too might have thought you had ruined a beautiful instrument. Instead you have your own unique NRP Tricone with a pretty wild looking headstock. It's your guitar, you bought it, and that's all there is to it - Cool!

Keep in touch,
Shine On,
Michael.

[davey]

I like the finish on the Tricone ! It's almost like the Duco paint on Duolians.

My first Duolian was stripped and chrome plated. That treatment would have made it look much better.

Incidentally I'd look out for an original Duolian, Based on my own guitars, the 12 fret sounds better though the 14 fret but I have no idea why. The 12 fret sounds more sweet and sustainy and the 14 fret sounds loud and dirty.

[jamesfarrell]

Thanks guys. Like I said, the photos make it look more profound than in person.

The only 14 frets I was aware of were style O's right? Are you saying that there are 14 fret Duolians as well?

Kevin

[Mark Makin]

Hello Kevin
After 1934, everything National made went to a 14fret body (except the Tricones)

[jamesfarrell]

Interesting. I don't know much about them. Seems there is a time span where they went belly up and no longer made them anymore ha?

So with the 14 fret, the neck is obviously longer. This causes the tone to be more harsh, abrupt, pingy?

I like sustain, which I guess the single cones don't have much of, but what I like the most is the ping sound of the bass strings. I like a nice loud pingy type sound, rather than a muffled bass. What I mean is like on my tricone, when I put a new set of strings on, that fresh type tone you get with new strings. Seems to me that steel is more apt to produce this tone than brass. Am I correct?

[davey]

I think you are correct about steel vs brass but I can only say that applies to my own guitars, and I've only had one of each model. I think Mark Makin may be better qualified than me to answer.

(Hello Mark, by the way, you kindly gave me some advice a few years ago when I started collecting)

I always play with metal picks, that has a huge effect on tone.

[Mark Makin]

Hello Davey
Still addicted to metal then?

Hello again Kevin
In simple terms, steel is a powerful attack and no decay type of a sound. Son House has a typical STEEL sound.
Brass (like the style 0's) to me has a brighter sound. This might be what you refer to as that "new string" type of sound.
The fourteen fret body shell always has a thinner, treblier sound whereas the 12 fret has a fuller, boomier sound. This is simply just the extra size in the body cavity.
Other things can affect the tone. It is possible to tune the neck stick screws at the bottom of the well. Tightening or releasing them can make the body ring in sympathy to certain keys. I know Bob Brozman would select various old cones to fit the tones of certain bodies based on how they "rang" when you hit the edge when it was suspended on a pencil point.
All / or some of these combinations will affect the total output.
Just keep fiddling with 'em!!!