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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 9:25:56 GMT
I can appreciate that it must be desirable to leave a vintage guitar as original as possible but if it needs works to get it playable it should be done. As a player rather than a collector, I’d much rather buy a vintage National that’s ready to play and has been sorted by the dealer, rather than take the chance on one that’s all original but will need work. Vintage National have an excellent reputation, I’ve never dealt with them myself but when I can afford a vintage National guitar I’m sure that I'll get in touch with Len.
By-the-way, if any body wants to hear a vintage El Trovador in action then Mike Dowling is the man to listen too.
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Post by SH on May 24, 2007 11:46:06 GMT
Hi Len,
Nice to have you here !
My Tricone and Style O are very beautiful and playable thanks to your works. Let's see what to dig next, that Islander or steel National, you never know !
Satoru
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Post by robn on May 24, 2007 12:20:49 GMT
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Post by Alan on May 24, 2007 12:57:46 GMT
Thanks for that, I tend not to look at sites flogging stuff on forums, its a bit too much sometimes, but look well packed. I was interested in those cases that are like pods, sort of tight fit and lightweight. Someone will know what I'm on about
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Post by Bill Stig on May 24, 2007 13:30:43 GMT
Hi Alan, when my tricone arrived from vintage nationals it was packed in its case in a large Martin cardboard box filled with polystyrene and paper. It took me and my wife about half an hour to find it amongst all the packaging, there must have about 2 foot of packing material around the case. There's some useful advice on Bob Brozman's site about packing and flying with resos: www.bobbrozman.com/tip_packfly.htmlBill
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Post by Michael Messer on May 24, 2007 14:13:47 GMT
Hello Lenny,
Good to hear from you & welcome to our forum.
I am sure there are many members that are regular visitors to your website and have become happy customers. I certainly check in once a week.
The reason I set this forum up a couple of years ago was so we can all learn from each other and share our knowledge. I noticed you call this forum my podium. It is not meant to appear that way at all. This really is supposed to be a forum in the true Roman meaning of the word. I do keep a close eye on the forum and I do try to contribute something to most of the threads, but I really do try not to preach. That is not what I am about at all.
Thank you for the kind words about MM National Newtone Strings. Newtone has been making them since 1992 and they are used by resophonic guitarist worldwide. Malcolm Newton & I are very proud of our strings.
Regarding the subject of re-conditioning vintage Nationals to sell them; I have a feeling we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. Either that, or all of the good stuff has gone out of circulation, as your experiences with 1920s & 30s Nationals and their condition, are different to mine. I think for you to say that ALL vintage Nationals need work done to them is incorrect. In my experience I would say something like 30 to 50% of them do require some set-up work to get them playing well; many of them as you say do require some serious re-conditioning and a few new parts (in the case of Wilbur, you have obviously done a beautiful job and given Wilbur another 70 years. My Havana 12 string restored by Mike Lewis is a similar case in point). I would never question that or doubt your skills as a repairer of National guitars. You have a fine reputation and have built a successful worldwide business, and for that I applaud you. But I do have to say that some of the best sounding and playing vintage Nationals I have seen (and I have certainly seen quite few hundred in my 30 plus years collecting & playing), were untouched from the day they left the factory in the 20s & 30s. ‘If it ain’t broke….don’t fix it’ was a motto that I learnt from Bob Brozman 20 or so years ago when I first got to know him.
I have seen some crazy things too. I like your mini blind cone story…it’s excellent!
I am very pleased to see serious ‘National’ collectors and players like you from all over the world meeting and talking on this forum. So please do join in and feel free to show us some of the instruments you are working on and restoring. It really is not a podium, it is a forum! This is a small world and the more we all work together, encourage and help each other, the better it is for everyone.
I too am involved with Nationals & other resophonic guitars because I love them. Buying my first resophonic guitar over 30 years ago irrevocably changed the course of my life. I should never have bought the darn thing!!!!
We have recently been discussing the good & bad points of original factory fitted felt gaskets and whether they should stay or go. We would be interested to hear your take on that subject?
I look forward to more discussions with you & other forum members on the wonders of our beloved ‘tin cans’.
Keep in touch,
Shine On, Michael
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2007 18:46:47 GMT
Thanks Michael, Apologize about the podium, I didn't mean YOUR podium, I just meant I was taking the chance to talk in depth for a time, grabbing the mic if you will. This is a great forum and I appreciate having a place to discuss these old guitars as my casual friends think I'm stuck in the 30's. On the old ones, I don't mean to infer every Nat out there needs extensive work, but in my 5 years of buying old Nats it's rare I find one that is right. If it is, it's usually someone along the way did some work that was done correctly. Or it was stored a long time with no string pressure. I sure wish I could polish and flip them, but alas, it's just rarely the case. I would imagine ones that don't would sound great! As for the gaskets, yes, I am totally against, but that's me. Here is the typical Duolian/single cone issues. Over the years, the neck pulls forward and action rises from string pressure and the fact the the fingerboard has just 3 screws and they are down from the top of the body, creating a weak spot in holding the neck stick back. So, over time, the owner has a luthier adjust the action back down. This is usually done by filing the saddle lower and lower. Most old Nat's I get the saddle is almost all the way down to the biscuit, so the strings are as low as they go. I have a huge bag of em, all down to the nub! This takes away the string break angle from the saddle downward towards the tailpiece. This angle is of course very important as it keeps downward pressure on the cone(s). When that pressure disappears, the cone starts rattling in place or buzzing. This is when the felt and gasket material start appearing. It's the last gasp effort to put a band aid on the real problem, which is the neck has come forward, leaving a poor angle to the body. You look down the fingerboard and you see the fingerboard flap that goes over the body rises up. Tell tale sign it just needs a neck reset. The neck goes back, you replace the saddle w a taller one, and the break angle at the saddle to tailpiece reappears. The fretboard then is straight as an arrow all the way down, no rise. I always clean out all the gasket material and remove all old glue and such from the well so the cone can contact the well metal to metal. Keep in mind many old Nat's I come across still have a nut riser on the nut and strings still on it and under tension. Not ideal way to sit for decades. On the tricones, the main issue I see is the cones compresses, especially on the bass side. I have a cone discussion link here...... www.vintagenationals.com/National%20Guitar%20Cone%20Speak%20temp.htmON the tricones, the T bridge will sink into the top of the cones, making them dimpled inward. This messes up the intended connection point, and the cone will then buzz against the T bridge. I often see gobs of gasket and glue under the gaskets in these too, but I also remove it all down to the metal well and clean it completely. I always clean the cones, but more importantly, I will use the back of my thumbnail to gently reshape the top of the cone to remove the large indent and make it back to original shape. Bottom line on gasket issue I found, it's usually there to mask buzzing that is caused elsewhere. Fix the root cause, and you don't need the gasket stuff. I know some people put it in and think, I love the sound more than ever! That is just a personal preference and maybe that person might even like a wood bodied Nat better. I find no evidence the original National factory EVER used gaskets on single cones. On tricones, they often used the paper material as I've seen it enough to know it. Anyhow, I'm rambling, have a great weekend all, and thanks for the warm welcome. It's all good! Always happy to chip in w an opinion. Best, Len
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Post by Michael Messer on May 25, 2007 12:11:56 GMT
Hi Lenny, I think you will find that in the 20s and 30s National did fit felt gaskets to many of their guitars. If these felt gaskets were fitted by various repairers and owners along their 70 year journey, how come they all used exactly the same green felt cut in exactly the same way and fixed with the same glue? Felt gaskets were put into Nationals to offer a choice of tone. The fact that it is not written about in THE book, is because there is no documentation or definitive answer as to 'why' they used felt gaskets, but they definitely did. In my 30 plus years of experience with these instruments I have seen many with original factory fitted felt gaskets. My own unique 1937 12 string Havana has a green felt gasket and it has an incredible tone with lots of volume, sustain and that magical 'lonesome reverb' so associated with resophonic guitars. Take out the green felt gasket....and all the magic disappears. I know of other wonderful sounding Nationals that have felt gaskets. However, I do agree that in most cases they do sound better without the felt, but there are guitars that sound better with it left alone. The plot thickens...... The expectation & tone required by today's National player is probably quite different to what many players were looking for in the 1930s. Keep in touch - where else could we have such a discussion! Shine On, Michael.
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Post by rickS on May 25, 2007 14:38:44 GMT
I can believe that - my ongoing Ozark-project (wood-body guitar, NR cone & biscuit, fake neckstick, extra top bracing) has succumbed to gasketting (to tame a little of the harshness) - it has one of those less-than-perfect wooden wells, &, lacking any of the proper felt, I improvised with a couple of layers of carpet-tape (kinda like heavy-duty gaffa), courtesy of the local hardware shop; result - bingo! harshness gone, but all the tonal complexity (& volume) retained - & I expect it will improve still more as it beds in; worth experimenting, for sure,
regards all,
RickS
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Post by rickS on May 26, 2007 10:15:36 GMT
Further thought re gaskets/felt - I'd think Mark Makin must have some authortative views on this? Be interested to know them..
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Post by Mark Makin on May 26, 2007 15:33:07 GMT
Hello RickS I have to say that on balance I agree with Michael M. Over the years I have been looking inside Nationals ( 40 years this year) like Michael, I have regularly come across gaskets in single cone guitars. ALL of these have been slightly hairy green felt similar to the covering on snooker tables. In almost all the cases, the felt sits in the bottom of the well under the cone and slightly wraps up the sides to create a snug fit. I believe these to have been factory fitted because many of these guitars have definitely never been opened since they were made. In the early 70's, it was almost usual for these to be taken out because it certainly does open up the volume and create a brasher type of sound. Personally, over the years, I agree with Michael that a quality of warmth can easily be lost in favour of this brashness. I don't mean by that the sound is necessarily damped out with the gasket. Some instruments sound considerably worse when the gasket is removed. The factory also fitted paper/cardboard/tape type of gaskets around the coverplate seals (usually on tricones) to stop buzzes and it is not unusual to find rubber-type wedges under the tailpieces to stop vibrations(I have seen most of these on 14fret Style Os). I have also seen quite a number of Tricones (mostly squarenecks) fitted with thin cork discs about half the thickness of a cork floor tile, under each of the cones. Sometimes in the factory, tricone covers would buzz before they left the works and many triplates are fitted with an extra screw to the right of the tailpiece to stop the cover and tailpiece coming together.
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Post by rickS on May 26, 2007 17:51:03 GMT
Thank you for responding, Mark, that's most interesting, & (for me) conclusive - I surmise that the good Mr Dopyera must have had some kind of arrangement with the local haberdashery/DIY store! I wonder what were the criteria that determined whether or not an instrument was 'gasketised', & if so with what? Maybe they set them up & then diagnosed what the tone required? Fascinating stuff, a shame that so much info can never now be known for certain..(the cork rings in Tricones surprises me, seems counter-intuitive, but obviously must've worked)..
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Post by Michael Messer on May 27, 2007 11:15:47 GMT
Thanks Mark. I too have seen all the various gaskets you mention and I agree with your comments.
It is hard to know exactly why they decided to 'gasketize' some instruments and not others. I have always assumed they were ordered that way by a particular store or band. I don't think everybody in the 30s was looking for volume. I agree that performers playing to large crowds were, but many musicians were looking for a sweet warm tone to play 'island songs' and to accompany themselves playing country and folk songs.
Another thought on this - and this really is just an assumtion - was that there is a connection between gaskets & recording sessions? With no EQ control or mixing facilities, the sound recorded was the sound that went to disc. All tweaking of sound and getting tones correct had to be done to the instruments and to the room. There are many stories of cushions and felt to dampen drums, pianos, horns and stomping feet.
I do know that the Dopyera brothers were very interested in how their instruments sounded at shows & concerts. I had a conversation with Bashful Brother Oswald (Pete Kirby) 15 or so years ago, and he told me that he and Rudi Dopyera used to go to shows and discuss the sound being produced by National & Dobro instruments and how they could be improved. Oswald's first resophonic guitar in 1929 was a single cone National, but he switched to the Dobro in the early 30s as it suited his Hawaiian playing style more than the National.
Interesting thread.....
Shine On, Michael
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Post by mirrormist on May 29, 2007 20:19:18 GMT
Absolutely gorgeous guitar...I wish, I wish A very interesting and informative exchange also Much appreciated...where else could you get such diversity??? Regards
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2007 21:38:37 GMT
Hello friends, I see we're still discussing felt. Here's my issue w the factory installed felt.... I have opened up over 200 Nationals in the last 5 plus years. Basically every model but Aragon. I have only seen felt in maybe 5 total guitars. Probably 2 or 3 were arguably old enough to be original. And the wells show no sign of the glue that is typically brushed onto the well under it. If there were any regular use of felt, I'd have seen it over and over, which I haven't. Im talking single cones here, as many if not most of the tricones had the paper gaskets under both the three cones and the coverplate, although I've yet to see felt.
Now, I am NOT saying they never did it. I believe they did, but usually for a reason. For example, a batch of cones may have been spun at a slightly lower height. Or, the well may be not perfectly flat for whatever reason.
My point, the felt may have been added to certain guitars that may have buzzed or been off slightly in manufacture. I don't believe they cared to make some that way and not others if not necessary or specifically ordered that way . I also can't believe they did it for example consistently on any model or for any specific period of time, i.e. 32-33 or whatever. If this was the case, I'd have seen tons of it, and as I say, I've only seen it a few times in over 200 plus guitars. I even looked at all the bodies I have stacked aside. I currently have about 15 bodies awaiting neck resets w the neck already off. Not one has any glue residue or felt. Not saying it never happened, as it did, but I think very rarely and for some type of reason. Same goes for material under the tailpiece.
Another example is that sometimes there are 4 wooden dowels instead of the usual two under the neckstick. I wondered why some have the outer two yet most don't. Well, I figured it out by taking them out of several bodies. What i found once removing them is, the bodies weren't totally straight. In other words, the back would push in and out like an oil can dent. The outer posts hold the back stiff and remove that flaw.
Don't mean to argue, as I'm trying to figure all this out like the rest of you. I've had this discussion w Don Young of National in the past and he thinks the same that it was not done on a regular basis. I guess unless you were there, noone really knows for sure. Brozmans book was a great tool and layed the groundwork, but noone could figure it all out and there's always exceptions to the rules. Theres still a lot to learn and I'm just trying to add some pieces to the puzzle. Hope all is well over here.
And to Mike the luthier, email me sometime at bluestar@silcom.com. I'd love to chat w you and learn from your experience.
Best, Len
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