|
Post by televiking on Jul 14, 2011 13:28:59 GMT
Hello This is something that has baffled me for some time. What is the difference between a Duolian and a Triolian? Is it only cosmetic? (paint) or are there some other differences as well? I've tried to read different websites through but haven't found an answer yet. The most funny thing I found was on National Resophonic's own history page which tells that both Duolian and Triolian were wood- bodied guitars... Since I own a 1931 Duolian I fell to the floor laughing when I read this. www.nationalguitars.com/admin/history.htmlQuote:"All of the styles were nickel-plated with some exceptions, most used ivory celluloid fingerboard binding. The style numbers ran from 1-4, 35, and 97. There were others, like an "N" or "O" style also. There are two exceptions I have to note, the Duolian and Triolian models, which had wood bodies. It's important to note that, as these are the ones often confused with "Dobro" type guitars, which also had wood bodies." So, a lot of misinformation is available, but how about the real deal? Probably I'm just blind to some obvious fact, but help an ignoramus please.. Cheers, Televiking
|
|
|
Post by washboardchris on Jul 14, 2011 14:23:28 GMT
Hi, there was a wood body Triolian made around 1928 -29 , they then went over to steel. ( the wood body Triolian is a great guitar by the way)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 15:30:03 GMT
i don't know much, and i may have all of this wrong. i think the triolian started out as a tricone project that never happened, and the duolian just started out as a single cone. i also think the duolian was cheaper materials / production. the other difference i think is that duolians are a bit cooler! in my highly biased opinion, collegians being rock bottom cheapest at the time are coolest tho'. tt
|
|
|
Post by lewiscohen on Jul 14, 2011 16:19:34 GMT
Most significant constructional difference is in the neck..... bound maple on a Triolian, unbound mahogany on a Duolian.
|
|
|
Post by televiking on Jul 14, 2011 16:29:20 GMT
Most significant constructional difference is in the neck..... bound maple on a Triolian, unbound mahogany on a Duolian. I have noticed the neck differences in material and binding. Do these differences affect the tone of the guitar? And are the bodys the same gauge steel or brass?? Are there differences there? Thanks Televiking
|
|
|
Post by Mark Makin on Jul 14, 2011 17:51:36 GMT
The Triolian was originally planned as a Triplate with small coverplate and floral design. It is unlikely that these were ever made. NONE have ever ben found.The first single cone Triolians that followed were wood bodied from Oct 1928 to Oct 1929. Initially they featured a floral anemone decal and later changed to the Hula Girl. Final wood instruments had stencilled palm trees before the first metal ones in late 1929.
The first series of metal Triolians - known as the '0' prefix series (roughly 200 instruments) and the first 500 or so in the W series and the P series were made in three pieces. So were the first 1000 or so 'A' series Triolians with the Bakelite necks. These were constructed between September 1929 and April 1930. The thin gauge sheet steel was zinc galvanised. This accounts for the flaking paint loss on these instruments. The galvanising was done to strengthen the metal.
In mid 1930, probably due to complaints about flaking, the galvanising was stopped and shortly after Triolians, and the recent 'new' Duolians were made of two pieces by stamping the top and sides together and soldering the back on. (The paint finish also dramatically improved!!)
ALL the early 3-piece instruments have a sound quality and prescence that far surpasses the later made two piece Triolians and most all of the Duolians.
The neck binding is a small difference that added to the quality and the book price - body wise, the early metal Triolians are really VERY different.
|
|
|
Post by gouranga on Jul 14, 2011 18:15:32 GMT
Thanks for that Mark. Take care and best wishes.
Gouranga
|
|
|
Post by televiking on Jul 15, 2011 7:59:22 GMT
Thank you very much to all who explained to me. Especially Mark. Very informative.
Televiking
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Jul 15, 2011 9:02:50 GMT
Thanks Mark for posting such a detailed answer.
From a player's point of view it is true that early metal-bodied Triolians are superior to later Triolians and most Duolians. That doesn't mean to say that all Duolians and late Triolians are not good guitars. Quite the opposite, they are wonderful guitars, but there is a certain something about those early metal-bodied Triolians.
The problem these days is finding one that hasn't been tampered with by an over enthusiastic dealer, or a repairer that needs to bump their profit up by fitting new parts.
Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by wolvoboy on Jul 15, 2011 13:59:49 GMT
Does it make a difference in sound when the old Nationals are amplified( not pickups) miked up,does it bring out the subtlies of the guitar or is a natural un-amplified sound better. wolvoboy
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Jul 15, 2011 14:13:15 GMT
Hi Wolvoboy,
The natural sound of an un-amplified guitar will always be the best, but a guitar amplified by a good sound engineer with good equipment should capture most of the subtleties and character of the guitar. When you have been to my gigs and heard my guitars through the PA system, they still sound like my guitars which means that you are hearing the pure sound of the guitar. Otherwise my guitar might sound like your guitar when amplified. It is the same with a human voice through a microphone.
Shine On Michael.
|
|
|
Post by wolvoboy on Jul 15, 2011 18:29:03 GMT
when did National go from using ebony nuts to other material ie: for example bone nuts or have they allways used both or other materials,i was wondering if there is a difference in sound with ebony nuts compered to bone nuts,i know these days most people prefer bone nuts is it because of the cost of ebony or is bone better,sorry if it sounds like a stupid question but i am interested to know wolvoboy
|
|
|
Post by Michael Messer on Jul 17, 2011 10:03:06 GMT
Hi Wolvoboy, It is not a stupid question. As far as I know, they only used wood nuts on some 12 fret Duolians. I have never really researched or discussed this, so I am not sure when it started or finished. I think it was either a way of keeping costs down, or the factory were trying it ....something along those lines. Ebonized cardboard fretboards were used on those guitars as well. (National Duolian cardboard fretboard) Does your Duolian have a wood nut? Shine On Michael
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2011 10:27:55 GMT
that old thread about the carboard fretboards was a good read. - danged if i can find it now... tt
|
|
|
Post by alexandre on Jul 17, 2011 15:35:54 GMT
The first series of metal Triolians - known as the '0' prefix series (roughly 200 instruments) and the first 500 or so in the W series and the P series were made in three pieces. So were the first 1000 or so 'A' series Triolians with the Bakelite necks. These were constructed between September 1929 and April 1930. The thin gauge sheet steel was zinc galvanised. This accounts for the flaking paint loss on these instruments. The galvanising was done to strengthen the metal. In mid 1930, probably due to complaints about flaking, the galvanising was stopped and shortly after Triolians, and the recent 'new' Duolians were made of two pieces by stamping the top and sides together and soldering the back on. (The paint finish also dramatically improved!!) ALL the early 3-piece instruments have a sound quality and presence that far surpasses the later made two piece Triolians and most all of the Duolians. The neck binding is a small difference that added to the quality and the book price - body wise, the early metal Triolians are really VERY different. Hello, That's an interesting discussion here... ... I was believing to know everything about the differences between Duolians and Triolians, but the answer of Mark is learning me some new details (as always ;D that's why I love this forum !). Knowing that the main differences that have been recalled here are concerning the "12 fretter" Duolians and Triolians (for the "14 fretter", it's another story... ), I'd like to ask Mark about a Triolian that I've got here... This exemplar have the "184 W" serial number plus the "PAT APLD FOR" stamped on the top of the headstock... The global condition was pretty fine when I've got it (with some non-original tuners: seems like some vintage Harmony/Silvertone tuners), but it was needing a neck reset for sure (it was set with an antique nut-raiser since what it appeared like a long time, so that the strings were fairly high at the neck/body junction, after removing the nut-raiser). Mike Lewis did a great job on this one: he has detected and removed a neck-stick scoliosis, and reworked the fingerboard, replacing the frets in the operation... By the way, this guitar was sounding great even before Mike's intervention, but it's also playing great right now... So my questions are : 1 - considering the serial number, could it be a three-piece-body construction (I guess so, if I understand your last answer well) ? 2 - I've red somewhere (don't remember where) that the stamped patent, close to the serial number, was only on the first 1000 Triolians : is it true ? Was it on all the different series of Triolians, or only the W serie ? Here are some pictures (without the serial number/ patent closeup): - on Mike's bench - at home - with a cousin Thanks if Mark or anyone here can satisfy my curiosity !!
|
|